The followup to a previous post yields the result and the difficult road ahead.
As Went Mississippi
A few months back, Hacking Christianity reported and commented on two large Mississippi congregations that were petitioning to leave The United Methodist Church.
At the time, Heather Hahn reported for UMNS that both The Orchard and Getwell Road UMCs in the Mississippi Annual Conference had taken congregational votes and were about to begin negotiations to leave.
Despite the missional language of reaching people for Christ, what was being negotiated is very specific: the property, endowments, and debts of the local church, if it ceases to be United Methodist, revert to ownership by the Annual Conference. Everything. That’s the law…with a favorable past of being enforced, thanks to The Episcopal Church preceding us in dealing with schismatics for the last decade.
Since both sides wanted to avoid a court battle and lawyer fees, they held negotiations to the terms of the disaffiliation, much like “who gets what” in a divorce.
- The local church, since it is their current members who paid for the building and its upkeep (Getwell is ~30 years old, and Orchard still has their founding pastor), likely pushed for minimum settlement money to be paid, reasoning they bought it all already.
- The Annual Conference, since it was their investment of seed money and assigned pastors that started BOTH churches and the profits will be used for new church starts, likely pushed for maximum payout since it ultimately owns everything anyway.
We ended our writeup with the following section:
The stakes are incredibly high for Mississippi. Not only are they potentially losing $500,000 a year in apportionments, they could potentially lose almost $10m in property money to be used for new church starts or whatever they allocate that money for.
But they also stand as the bellweather which will signal the deals that other churches can expect to get. And if they leave tons of money on the table or get cut out completely…so will the rest of the UMC, with schismatic elements emboldened by the negotiated terms and lowered risk.
My hope is that the Mississippi AC upholds the Discipline.
My hope is that they stand firm on the expectations of our tradition and our covenant.
My hope is that the churches buy back their property in full (the non-indebted $10m).
My hope is that the financial pain for these exiting churches is so high that it shakes the stained glass in the old Wesleyan Covenant Association logo.
My hope is rather rigid, it seems. But it only serves to honor the Discipline that the other side so seems to venerate 100%…except when inconvenient.
Sadly, it appears such hopes were dashed upon the rocks.
The Result
As reported by the Mississippi Annual Conference, the (unverified) details of which were shared by the Good News Movement:
According to lead pastor Bryan Collier, The Orchard Church (Tupelo) reached a settlement with conference leaders that made its departure official as of May 19, 2017.
The congregation agreed to pay 100 percent of its 2017 apportionments and to release the annual conference from all financial and legal liabilities. In turn, the conference has released the congregation from the trust clause. Therefore, The Orchard now has complete and unfettered ownership of its property and assets.
Their 2017 apportionment is between $270k-$300k, so let’s be optimistic and say they bought their $7m property for $300,000.
A Payout Far Too Low. Absurd even.
The reality is that this payout is far too low, for at least two reasons.
First, the property value is estimated at $7 million, with the church owing around $5 million in debt. If the Orchard church uprooted and abandoned The UMC, the Annual Conference would own both the debt and the property. Assuming they sold it for 90% of its value and paid off the debt, that’s still a windfall of $1.3 million that can be used for missions and ministry.
Second, and even more egregious, is that the payout is barely more than the church’s deficit in apportionment giving which began in 2013:
- In 2015, Orchards paid 81.7% of their quarter of a million dollar apportionment, a shortfall of $45k for shared missions and ministry.
- In 2014, the deficit was $38,879 of shared missions and ministry.
- In 2013, the deficit was $35,177 of shared missions and ministry.
We don’t have the numbers for 2016 or 2017, but let’s assume the three year trend-lines hold of 81%. Conservatively, the Orchard Church would have not paid $52,250 in 2016 and $60,000 in 2017 of their apportionment. Over a five year period, Orchards is estimated to have withheld $231,306 from the Mississippi Annual Conference shared missions and ministry.
In short, the Orchard Church bought their $7,000,000 property and their $300,000/year obligation with only $69,000 of new money. 69 thousand dollars. That’s it.
That’s a bargain for them. And a ridiculous shortfall for Mississippi shared missions and ministry. If I was a tithing church in Mississippi, I’d be hopping angry at Conference leadership. And I’d be really closely scrutinizing the Getwell Road deal, coming in a few weeks.
What can other ACs do?
I hoped for the Mississippi Annual Conference to uphold the Discipline and make leaving The UMC as painful as possible for these churches. That did not happen, so now their template of taking on debt and paying a year’s apportionment may become on the table across the Connection.
But there’s several things Annual Conferences can do now to ensure Orchards robbed The UMC instead of started a trend.
- Ensure all local church deeds have the proper Trust Clause language. This is a simple check to make sure no churches have slipped through the cracks without proper deeds. If this work is done before separation, then it will be helpful.
- Establish a minimum payout policy that Annual Conference committees have to abide by. While it seems the Trustees of Mississippi was willing to give away the farm, other conferences would not be able to if a minimum payout was decided by Annual Conference policy change.
- Bishops and DSes can establish direct communication with local church lay leadership. While focusing on pastors who have set their mind that they are leaving, local leadership may not be in the same place. For DSes and Bishops to open communication with them early and often, that would go a long way to cooling tempers and hotshots looking to replicate the Orchards fiasco.
Annual Conferences worried about losing decades of investment and current operating capital–which would then be shouldered on more and more of their churches (theirs will now go up $300k a year spread out among many churches)–would do well to heed these suggestions and keep the Orchard tempest in a teapot.
Your Turn
Thoughts?
Thanks for reading, commenting, and your shares on social media.
The irony in Jeremy’s fixation on the WCA and property is palpable. When the theological left gained control of the Episcopal Church and principled conservatives/traditionalists sought to align with Anglican bodies consistent with historic beliefs, a 23M legal war over property ensued, as the bureaucracy told the conservatives, “Take the fire with you but we own the stove.” When the theological left gained control of the Presbyterian Church USA, they learned some lessons from the Episcopal horror show but also have repeated the fight over control of the “filthy lucre” of property. As a global denomination, the UMC is not going left-wing on certain issues, and the conservatives have started to suggest that if the liberal elements do not feel they obey church teaching and discipline, depart with blessing, with property intact, with pensions secure…in short, the reverse of the Episcopal fiasco. Then a couple of more conservative UM churches depart the denomination, without either the encouragement of support of the WCA, and Jeremy goes ballistic. “Make them paaaay!”I totally reject the reasons given for that departure but also respect Bishop Swanson’s leaning toward grace rather than civil war. I suspect if any of the “bad churches” (Oliveto’s words) that support church teaching on sexuality in the WJ seeks to depart or simply withhold apportionments in protest of conscience, those infidels from the religion of intolerant tolerance will be shown no mercy…because it is crucial to (selectively) uphold the Discipline.
And I have this strange feeling that you are all upset about the Western Jurisdiction not following the Discipline in their recent appointment of the Lesbian Bishop, right? So, after likely running around demanding that the Judicial Council stick to the Discipline…you’re OK with the Mississippi Bishop totally ignoring the Discipline. Do I have that all correct?
How did they “totally ignore” the discipline? They negotiated a settlement . . . isn’t that what happens when a church – as a whole – decides to leave the UMC?
They plainly told the bishop that they could not live in the current system and wanted to leave peacefully. They negotiated a process and there they go.
That’s very different from those claiming “biblical obedience” as the reason why they stay in the UMC but do not uphold or follow the discipline.
there is no “negotiation” allowed ownership of the property reverts to the Annual Conference. PERIOD
They have a huge facility that probably has some huge debt with it.
Where in the BOD does it say that all churches who no longer want to be a part of the UMC must leave their property?
That can’t be right. I know of many instances – some that happened lately – where a church buys back their property or commits to something that was agreed upon.
Whatever the case, this is what happens when we refuse to be held accountable to one another. The bishops in the West and North have been letting off pastors accused of performing same sex couples with a slap on the wrist and BOM’s have been letting self-avowed practicing homosexuals become pastors. Are we surprised when an AC in the South allows a conservative, orthodox church to leave with minimal repercussions? Really . . . seriously?
I would not be surprised if the entire Mississippi conference chose to withdraw from the UMC. People are tired of this crap and want to get on with doing mission without having to deal with all of this junk.
It looks like MSAC is looking to do precisely that. That’s the only logical explanation for why this result and why accountability and AC votes on it are being pushed to the shadows.
Bob S is exactly spot on right. The Western Jurisdiction did not apply the discipline in the ordination of a Bishop. Myers Park United Methodist did not apply the discipline in having a gay wedding in the church. Bishop Goodpastor of the WNC Conference responded by “starting a file’ on the then current pastor. What this says is the absurd idea that we are going to apply the rule on an arbitrary and capricious basis. My church is located in one of the most economically depressed areas in the United States. Formally heavily textile manufacturing operations. If the Western North Carolina UMC desires it, Kudos; you are now the proud owner of property in this community.
Surprised by the 1 year 100% expected a 3 year buy out or something more than what we are expected to do regularly. Disappointed that they left.
Same :-/
So, now we need to enforce thr Discipline? Haven”t seen much of that lately, have we? Seems ironic.
It is hypocritical indeed. For one side to argue that 100% of the Discipline needs to be upheld, but they don’t pay apportionments, it really negates their argument. Maybe a better one is WHY the differing sides choose to not follow the Discipline. That’s a better conversation.
Jeremy, while I’m certainly supportive of the notion that every UM church ought to pay 100% of its apportionments as a matter of mission and ministry, the fact is that a local church’s apportionment is not an enforceable debt. ¶604.2 says, “An annual conference cannot financially obligate any organizational unit of The United Methodist Church except the annual conference itself.”
Enforce the Discipline…what a novel idea.
Two comments:
A bishop does not have the authority to dismiss the trust clause. An audacious over reach that reveals they aren’t really motivated by following BOD rules.
The pension liabilities for the pastors who served that church in the past stay with the conference. Mississippi is still paying off their pre-82 liability and they share in the crsp-do liability. Wespath asserts that each church that leaves should pay towards that liability they helped create and are shuffling off to the conference. So, that 69k probably isn’t enough to cover the pension exposure of multiple staff churches over years of service. They might be making money by leaving.
Precisely. Pension liabilities are big deals, depending on how each conference has structured them.
Why can’t person who’s a member of the UMC make a complaint to the Judicial Council for a ruling?
They will likely do the same when the complaint was made about Oliveto. They would put it back on the MSAC to take further action…
Although the WCA officially claims it does not support this activity, googling for information provides plenty of evidence that the group is complicit. It is interesting that they have not been insisting that the discipline must be followed.
John, would you supply for the benefit of others some of the evidence you’ve found that directly ties WCA activity to the Orchard settlement? Thanks.
Other than the fact that Orchard Sr. Pastor Collier is on the WCA leadership council?
Collier’s position within WCA is a given. “Complicit” means that there is participation with others in carrying out unlawful activities. We know that as part of Orchard’s leadership Collier was actively involved in the negotiated settlement. But where’s the evidence that either WCA as a body or the WCA leadership council was encouraging disaffiliation and/or was involved in the negotiations? And the jury’s still out as to whether the settlement was contrary to disciplinary requirements.
I heartily agree with this statement from the lead pastor from the Orchard:
“Our departure was not about the homosexuality issue per se, but about the general church’s inability to deal with it. Unfortunately, its failure became an enormous distraction to the kingdom work our congregation is called to do.”
From the time I first immersed myself in this issue shortly before GC2012, I have been stunned that sexuality has been allowed to become the do or die issue for the church because some of the Bishops were not willing to support the consistent answer that came out of General Conference multiple times over a 40 year stretch. Such a scenario is not the sign of a healthy organization–it is the sign of an organization that is coming unwound.
The Orchard has become its own free-standing multi church organization. Why in the world would it want to continue to be associated with such a lost and out of control organization run by leadership that cannot even be obedient to its own designated mode of operation. The Orchard is only expressing the current reality of The United Methodist Church: everybody is operating from their own personal perception of what the church needs to be.
Jeremy,
Your goal appears to be attracting eyeballs and inflicting pain. Because of that I ignored this until I saw people I know sharing this post.
People of all theological backgrounds in Mississippi and especially those who celebrate vital ministry are mourning the loss of these churches. This isn’t a fun news story to blog about for us, but extended ties that are being severed. I fully expect to see tears in clergy session as we vote to receive the clergy credentials of those in ministry at the Orchard’s campuses.
I don’t trust you and if any on the Orchard staff is aware of you I doubt they do either. They will not defend themselves on this forum. I wouldn’t advise them to. Against my better judgement I will offer some perspective, even as I am heartbroken by their move.
How does one in the Pacific Northwest get yearly apportionment data on a church in Mississippi? Was your intent knowledge or a hatchet job? If you had found they paid 100% would that have made it into a post or have been conveniently left out?
I don’t know how the invoice comes to your church for apportionments, but in Mississippi it is a page long with amounts next to each item. Line items vary from superintendents fund, to camping ministries, to pre 1982 pastors support.
The Orchard has for several years not paid every line item on their apportionment in full. However they have paid the full amount choosing to reallocate to support HBCU Rust College instead of some other items. (I could speculate which but I do not know for sure.) They haven’t pocketed the difference. They’ve given it to apportioned categories. They just don’t get the sticker at annual conference.
Even if the Mississippi Conference chose to see The Orchard as an adversary and they chose your punitive plan of action there are additional flaws.. do you seriously think a church that could afford to buy The Orchard’s property wouldn’t simply build themselves? Land here is CHEAP in much of the state. Getting 90% of appraised value seems far fetched at best.
I say this as someone whose home church tried to sell their original location in a wealthy and growing community and stopped trying after several years when they couldn’t find a buyer.
Get your own house in order, Jeremy as we mourn and figure this out. Your activity does not help our church and is destructive to our small hope of a unified denomination going forward.
Hi John, I regret that you’ve bought into the online narrative by a few opponents that my goal in life is more clicks and more anger. It’s not true and anyone that reads this site regularly can see through such allegations.
John, we are a Connectional Church. Apportionment data, debt, value, and all those things are public information. I ask the GCFA for the data every year–last data dump is 2015. So yes, everyone can access the data but only the super nerds dive into it to find the trends. If you support clergy bringing charges across annual conference lines, then you have to support that I can read a spreadsheet across AC lines. It’s not nefarious.
I see what you wrote about HBCU. That’s the problem in the local church when someone takes part of their unrestricted tithe and gives it to a particular line item as an offering. It’s a change from one form of gift to another and therefore not a fulfillment of ones assigned obligation. It’s a choice.
Finally, there are plenty of problems in Methodism. No one knows about some of them unless they are written about and brought to light. I’m glad for my work to do such things so that all may benefit from doing work in public and in the sunlight. Thanks for letting me write a bit more about it. Blessings to you and yours, John.
I think what we are seeing are all the flaws in the system and those flaws are bringing the whole thing crumbling down.
When we vote on things at AC or GC and come to a consensus, those who disagree often do not go along with the majority. Some have justified this through biblical obedience, some have withheld giving because they did not believe in what they were being told to give to, some are not giving because they have to make a choice between giving to the “big” church and doing ministry in their local church.
Ironically, I was told by my first DS who was very liberal/progressive to never let giving to the “big” church keep us from doing ministry in our local context. Localized ministry always comes first (which I agree with). But the more conservative DS who replaced her said that was wrong and that we needed to make sure that we “pay in” . . . even if that required cutting the pastor’s salary. As a student-pastor who was worn out from ministered with few resources and whose wife worked full time but we still couldn’t pay the bills . . . I did not particularly care for that message.
The whole system is strained economically, relationally, spiritually, etc. to the breaking point. It is best that we acknowledge that the United Methodist Church created in 1968 has come to an end. It had its good and bad. But overall, it did a lot of good. It is not time to realign, retool, and regather into something different that will EFFECTIVELY do God’s work in the world.
The online narrative, Jeremy, comes from what you say and do.
Yet again in 2016, the Western Jurisdiction has not fully paid for its own bishops through the Episcopal Fund. This means that the rest of us pay Dr. Oliveto’s salary. Yet again in 2016, the Western Jurisdiction makes NO contribution toward the central conference and retired bishops.
You continue to ignore the plank in your own eye while complaining about the splinter in others.
Sky is definitely on target about the relative difficulty with moving church property. We have a large backlog in Greater NJ and have a property person working on it but we aren’t under any illusions that will be a rapid process.
When you talk about looser connections, you take the same cafeteria approach as many do (on all sides of these issues) but you simply add a lot of heat but very little light.
It amazes me as I read this that not one comment I have found mentions the fact that churches like the Orchard are leaving primarily becayluse it is evident that the United Methodist Church Conference has begun to ignore the very written laws of God. This entire article about money and the business of the conference. Money and power. The very things that wrecked the Catholic Church centuries ago.
I support a church that leaves a lost organization that has forgotten why it exists!
There are many ways the right wing in the United Methodist Church violates the written word of God. Surely very few of them really do follow what Jesus said about Loving our Enemies and Turning the Other Cheek, WHICH he didn’t mean just for individuals but for nations as well. Very few conservatives in our denomination are pacifists, and many of them are frankly quite militaristic. And voting for Trump as probably the majority of UM conservatives did violates the written word of God as well. There are SO many passages in the Bible which teach we are to care for the poor and needy. Trump doesn’t believe the nation has any responsibility to the poor and needy. The Bible’s injunctions to care for the poor and needy don’t only apply to individuals, but for nations as well. For instance, Matthew 25:31-46 talks about how the NATIONS (τα εθνη- ta ethne- where we get the word “ethnic” from) are judged according to how how they visited the sick (could by extension mean the nations guaranteeing healthcare for all) feeding the hungry (Trump wants to cut food stamps), visit the prisoners etc. Psalm 72:4 states of the ideal King of the NATION, “That he may defend the oppressed among the people, save the poor and crush the oppressor.” There are also many passages in the Bible which talk about having fair wages. For instance, James 5:1-6 is a very strong condemnation of rich people withholding the wages of the workers who harvested their crops.” Trump, who 81% of Evangelicals voted for has notoriously withheld wages from many people who have done backbreaking work for him. Republicans also don’t believe in having minimum wages at all. So ignoring how the NATION is supposed to govern justly makes it a very hollow argument that believing that LGBT persons should be treated with justice and equality is contrary to the written Word of God.
Where are you getting this information about conservatives in the UMC about? Are you talking about people in the pews or conservative leaders?
I attend Asbury Seminary which is considered to be the “conservative” seminary of United Methodism. When Trump was elected, students and faculty alike were very alarmed and many were dismayed. We had special sessions that focused on how we might protect people that Trump’s immigration policies might target.
You just can’t stereotype people into broad lumps. People who are considered to be “conservative” in their theology (I prefer the term “orthodox”) do not all hold to conservative political ideology.
The fact remains that polls indicate 81% of Evangelicals voted for Trump. Trump wouldn’t be in the White House were it not for this vote. Of course, this means 19% didn’t vote for him. Did most people at Asbury vote for Hillary?
I know who they voted for. I don’t care who someone voted for as much as I care as to whether they follow the risen Christ, seek to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love their neighbor as they love themselves.
Some people who fall into the “evangelical” category actually choose not to vote at all because of conscience. Some of us choose to invest in intercessory prayer and doing all the good that we can to make our communities and neighborhoods good and godly places to live. Trusting in flawed human beings who oversee flawed and broken political systems just doesn’t seem to be the right thing to do.
Dan, I trust that you realize that NATION refers to a people group, which is defined by a shared history, language, and culture and has nothing to do with the modern, political NATION-STATE. You’re conflating two entirely different concepts. For example, there have been for hundreds of years without interruption a Polish nation, even during those times when a Polish state was absent from any map. And a German nation existed during centuries when governed by 40 or more separate states. Clearly it is the people who are enjoined to tend to the needy; whether they do so through the instrument of the nation-state or through other means is not addressed in scripture. Perhaps the nation-state is the most effective vehicle for that work, but there’s no mandate that it be used as such.
I’ll be the first to say, this is not the way to deal with conflict in a denomination. Covenants should be kept, regardless of location/jurisdiction.
As a soon-to-be former DS, I can tell you: the problem with selling church property with a church building on it is that they don’t sell quickly – if at all. You have a better chance of selling it by razing the building and selling just the property, with the big *IF* that it’s in a favorable location. Go to sites like Loopnet (http://www.loopnet.com/Churches-For-Sale/) and then research how long some church buildings have been on the market. Insuring and maintaining an empty building is also a nightmare.
Case in point: the Holston Conference is leasing a former non-denom megachurch, “The Gathering”, in Sevierville, TN, for $150k a year on a two-year lease. The church first listed for $6.7M. It now lists for $5.3M. The church was built in 2008 for $11.3M, and closed in 2013. The bank forgave the $9M debt and took the building and property. Nobody’s interested in buying it yet.
A property is only as valuable as its desirability, regardless of its appraisal. Church buildings are, as a rule, not desirable to buyers. Sometimes, the property they sit on is.
An update on the settlement between The Orchard and the Mississippi Conference: I heard from a trusted pastor friend who knows the lead pastor of The Orchard that the door is open for the church to return to the denomination if the denomination puts an end to the sexuality argument in a way that The Orchard can live with.
In other words the sexuality problem is indeed the “do or die” issue for this congregation.
I’m still at a loss how the election and consecration and assignment of Bishop Oliveto in the WJ prevents a local church in Mississippi from fulfilling its essential tasks of ministering, worship, and mission. Unless they want to make it a stumbling block, of course.
Jeremy argues for The Discipline – I am stunned.
Shall we look at a few facts though:-
1. Congregations or previous congregational members probably paid for the building. The Conference probably did not build the building and spend lots of their own cash. The present congregation are servicing the debt.
2. If the majority of a congregation wants to walk away from the UMC then what is the point of trying to keep them? Isn’t it good to have a vibrant, living faith community?
3. Trust law is extremely conplicated. I know that Orchard had lawyers working for them. No conference wants to go to court as if they lose the trust clause, well it sets law. Conferences are trying to stay out of court.
4. Try and sell a building for several million and it will sit around for a long time. That costs money.
I think the piece is flawed.
Andy
The BOD aside, am I the only reader who deeply resents the lead pastor’s statement (if he has indeed been quoted correctly above) that the UMC’s struggle to welcome and include LGBTQIA folks in the church “has become an enormous distraction to the kingdom work our congregation is called to do”? What sort of Christ-centered kingdom work does he think a congregation can accomplish when it refuses to follow Jesus’ command to “love your neighbor as yourself”? What happens when his congregation tries to minister to an LGBTQIA person? How can anyone in that congregation show Christ’s love to someone they consider “an enormous distraction”? Does Orchard’s lead pastor not consider LGBTQIA folks to be beloved children of God and of sacred worth? There is more hypocrisy going on here than just violating the BOD. They are violating the second of what Jesus considered the most important two commandments. How can they truly love God when they don’t even love their neighbors?
As a lifelong United Methodist, I am quite sure that the UMC is dead and does not even realize it. We argue dollars and property and totally ignore God’s Word.
God’s WHOLE word, not a snippet here and there.
Yes, we are a dead denomination holding on to a form of godliness and denying its power.
Heartbreaking. And those who refuse to see this just delude themselves.
The bishops and other eclessiastical snobs like to refer to themselves as shepherds. I have been a shepherd in the physical sense for Sixty plus years.I am insulted by the bishops and the progressives actions. I am strengthened and invigorated by the stand of the traditionalists and the overseas delegates response in the vote. Dr. Jerry P. Kulah’s speech was as motivational as any I have heard since Martin Luther King. The progressives dare to infer that we (Orthodox , Overseas delegates and 4000 + years of judeochristian discipleship) do not understand the Bible. Jesus came to fulfill the law not replace it. The Methodist Church has open doors and open arms and especially open hearts. Dope dealers, drunks , thieves, prostitutes , murderers and homosexuals should be welcomed into our churches. When they repent of their sins, then they are elgible to be ordained. Read your Bible — it will explain it to you. Pretending otherwise will leave you with a flock that is not healthy or thriving. It is the same in nature and congregations. It is a high point of arrogance to believe these ecclesiastical fellows believe they know more about God’s preferences in human sexuality than St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James , Martin Luther, John Wesley, and D.L. Moody .
On the question of these congregations leaving their conference, where did that money originally originate? You sound as irresponsible as a U.S. Congressman. You can play games of this building belonging to the “trust” . The reality is that church body is the people who believe and worship. John wesley preached in fields, barns, and warehouses. The Methodist church will thrive without these bishops , bloated expenses, and unresponsive staffs.