One of the more frequent arguments I’ve seen in the church lately is about Beth Moore. A colleague was asked why they wouldn’t allow a Beth Moore bible study to be used by a Sunday School class. The colleague responded with this concise one-liner that we’ll expand on in one of the longest posts ever at Hacking Christianity:
“If someone is setting fire to your house, why would you let them in?”
The Problem of Beth Moore: Introduction
Beth Moore is a Southern Baptist author, teacher, and evangelist, and the founder of Living Proof ministries that offers videos, bible studies, and events for women. She is very popular and is probably the #1 moneymaker for LifeWay Christian Bookstores, a Southern Baptist affiliated chain of bookstores (similar to Methodist’s Cokesbury).
Because she is massively successful, her videos are inspirational, and her events are empowering to women, it is not uncommon to find a Beth Moore bible study in a United Methodist Church in the Bible Belt. It used to be that pastors could prohibit it by saying “We only allow curriculum from Cokesbury” but Cokesbury sells her materials now. Also, there’s usually pressure for male United Methodist ministers to allow this dynamic woman into their Sunday Schools or else they get accused of misogyny.
Therein lies part of the problem of Beth Moore. One of my facebook friends described Beth Moore as Methodist Kudzu: a plant that was taken from its natural habitat and now runs wild causing havok. While Moore is perfectly at peace and in sync with the Baptist tradition (other than being a female teacher in an anti-women-preacher denomination), her brand of theology and way of reading the bible conflicts with the Wesleyan tradition and the United Methodist Church’s doctrine to which it has spread.
So what is a United Methodist clergyperson or church to do with Beth Moore?
Here’s where I’m on shaky ground: I’m not a woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman and see a confident, capable female biblical scholar whose passion about the Bible is infectious. I haven’t watched these videos in a woman’s group and been inspired and had the discussions afterward. So I don’t know what that is like and I’m hesitant to comment on it…
But luckily for you…I have woman friends! To be more specific, a half-dozen mainline (not crazy liberal and not crazy conservative) United Methodist women who are either clergy or clergy spouses have done at least two full studies and video programs with Beth Moore in their churches and wrote about their concerns to me.
I’ve categorized them and I’ve done some light editing to proofread/anonymize them but 98% of the quotes is their words.
Some disclaimers (or pre-emptive strikes, if you will):
- I am ABSOLUTELY not dismissing Moore’s ministry, faith, perspective, or obvious love for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and for helping women form a relationship with Christ. I am saying Beth Moore is appropriate for Baptist women within their theological system and NOT appropriate for Methodists and the Wesleyan system.
- I am ABSOLUTELY not dismissing women’s lived experience of Beth Moore or the transformations that she has had in their lives. That’s awesome and I celebrate that for you. Really! However, for those women who do not have a positive experience or are wondering about it, I offer these women’s lived experiences for you. If you think I’m dismissing women’s experience, I’m actually celebrating these women’s experience and holding them up as a counter-narrative to the Beth Moore phenomenon.
- Finally, I am ABSOLUTELY supportive of women in ministry. If you search online for Beth Moore criticism, almost all of them start out with the bullhonky about “women shall not have authority over men.” Most online criticism is thus not helpful to United Methodists, who by empowering women are closer to Jesus on that point (BOOM!). So this is an attempt to add to the conversation but without the fundamentalist hangups that, frankly, discredit most online commentary on Beth Moore in my eyes.
We good? Good. Read on…
The Problem of Beth Moore: Biblical Scholarship
Quotes:
[1] Beth Moore cleverly hides that she is a literalist. She does not just shoot from the hip, she uses a lot of commentary and you can learn about the cultures at the times the stories were written…probably the best part is when she explains why God hates the Amalekites and other groups and that’s why it’s okay for David to kill philistines and why the one guy in Esther hated Mordecai. She never approves of it officially, just explains it matter of factly without ever mentioning that the perspective of the authors may have been biased obviously.
[2] Beth Moore uses the New American Commentary as her primary source for Biblical exegesis (This is from their website–The New American Commentary is for those who have been seeking a commentary that honors the Scriptures, ….The New American Commentary assumes the inerrancy of Scripture, focuses on the intrinsic theological and exegetical concerns of each biblical book, and engages the range of issues raised in contemporary biblical scholarship.)
One of the main disagreements between her commentary and others is the four kingdoms that are represented by the beasts in Daniel. The whole idea of Daniel is taken as a literal prophecy (no consideration that it could have been written after the time of Daniel–he wrote it himself of course.) So she uses the Romans as one of the conquering armies, and keeps tying Daniel’s visions into the Romans conquering the Jews, and thereby brings Jesus into it.
She furthermore uses Revelation as a confirmation and continuation of the visions of Daniel, and ties them all together into this weird little package of end-time prophecies, with a literal Antichrist, matching the “big horn” in Daniel with the AntiChrist in Revelation.
It gets confusing, and a little dangerous, because there is just enough solid scholarship, in the names of the Greek Rulers, the Seleucids, Maccabees, the Babylonians, etc., that people tend to “buy” what she is saying, and tying this all in together.
Summary & Commentary:
Moore says often that scholarship and higher-level thinking gets in the way of the Gospel message. As a bible scholar, nothing offends me more. In her Daniel study, she takes everything very literally and does not offer any scholarship on what a message meant back when it was written, only at face value.
It also offends me that the very passages she quotes are often taken out of context and sometimes is read into beyond what is there. It might be helpful to slow down or pause her videos. In her videos she speaks so quickly that if you slow her down and look up the Scriptures she is referencing, you might see something different than what she is saying. I found that several times in her references to Mark and Romans in her Believing God DVD.
Further, a female blogger writes about Moore’s book So Long Insecurity:
This gets at the heart of the problem; Beth does not explain the meaning of the passage as derived from the context, she reads the passage in isolation, an elementary Bible study error. What she often fails to do, as is the case in this instance, is to explain how in submission to the scripture she arrives at her conclusions. She admittedly speculates and introduces personal experience and psychologizing of the text to back up her claims…sadly, she leaves her readers, many who are unfortunately disenchanted with the intellectual nature of the Christian faith, revisioning Paul the apologist as someone whose defense is motivated by self-centered weakness instead of a necessary defense of the gospel.
In short, students often learn how to read the Bible based on their teacher. By the way Moore presents the bible as Literal Truth but doesn’t read it literally, she is not modeling a consistent or helpful hermeneutic for students.
The Problem of Beth Moore: Unhelpful Theology
[3] My biggest problem with her theology is that she’s a Calvinist and though she avoids emphasizing it at times, she will wait for scripture that supports her perspective. Case and point: Esther (“but who knows that you have come to this position for such a time as this”). She really drilled it home on Esther and I couldn’t make it through the whole study. Now, like all successful modern Calvinist she always discusses the pain she has been through and never officially suggested that women are raped, abused, etc. for some higher purpose. She almost always uses her Calvinist perspective in a positive way like that we are destined for something greater that what we are living right now.
[4] From the Esther study, the main [problem] is her extreme doctrine of Providence. She believes, states, and teaches that everything that happens in our lives is an event caused by God, in order to teach us, or help us, etc. God causes everything to happen, whether good or bad. She goes on and on about it extensively, almost every lesson. I had to tell my ladies to really think about this–and where it leads. Because if they believe this, then do what do they tell a mom whose child has just died–that God caused it? To teach her what? Of course, the women don’t believe that, as most UM’s don’t…
[5] My Beth Moore criticism would include teaching that God causes bad things to happen to us to teach/test us. Lots of women in my church are ODing on BMoore – end up in my office for counseling when God “causes” tragedy & they can’t trust Him.
Summary & Commentary:
In addition to the above, my personal take is that Moore overuses the idea “God spoke to me” and people feel inadequate b/c God doesn’t always speak to them the same way. I am not doubting her experience, but as a pastor, I doubt she realizes the effect this has on some people. There’s a pastoral issue when one emphasizes special revelation in a study that is meant to be empowering and illuminating…and given her role, of course she doesn’t have to deal with the ramifications for the individual women trying to make sense of why God “willed” their son to die.
Thus, to these women, Moore’s biggest conflict with United Methodism is whether God wills terrible things to happen. From the Esther study, her main teaching is on Providence. “God causes everything to happen, whether good or bad” as our commentator mentions. This is absolutely unhelpful to women who have lost a child, have cancer, etc. I have never been able to look a woman in the eye who had a stillbirth and tell her God has a plan for her child to die (though God does have possibilities for healing!).
For example, the United Methodist Book of Worship includes a healing service for a family who has lost a pregnancy. Nowhere in this painful service do we ascribe to God that God had a purpose in this. We talk about mystery, we talk about “limited understanding” but never do we assume God’s intention in this, either the content of the intention or if there is an intention at all!
United Methodists are a diverse lot but if you really got down to it with the Methodist Middle and our Doctrine and Polity, we do not believe in this form of Providence (also called Determinism which is also taught by Rick Warren). It’s fine if individual Methodists believe this (and find meaning in it), but I do not and anyone I let into my house to teach ideally should not.
The Problem of Beth Moore: There’s Few Alternatives
Cokesbury and UMPH went the wrong way on the Beth Moore phenomenon. Instead of seeking out and offering publishing deals to a spunky United Methodist woman who loves the bible (a dozen of them I know just off the top of my head), they sold out and went where the money was and supported Moore’s publications.
What happened then is that Methodists had no equivalent to compare to Moore. What, suggest a women’s group just do a Disciple bible study instead? Please. BORING. Even the Living the Questions studies on Uppity Women are great theology but snoozer presentation (and SO EXPENSIVE that they are inaccessible to most). While these studies reach a certain segment of the denomination in really inspiring ways (I love them personally), the population segment that is attracted to Moore is not as attracted to these studies.
Why? Here’s my claim and feel free to debate it: People who watch Beth Moore aren’t as interested in the Bible as they are in someone who loves the Bible. One of my pastor friends expressed his frustration with Beth Moore being so popular by saying “she’s just so excited about reading the Bible.” While flippant it points out that while there may be better theologies out there, the UMPH is not offering comparative personalities.
Three of the six respondents mentioned that the attraction of Moore’s work wasn’t her theology but the way she made bible studies exciting. Her cadence, her structure, and the rhythm were well done…and easily/authentically imitated by a UM woman. As one of the commentators said and I promised I would include for balance sake:
[6] Here’s the kicker: I couldn’t have talked to you about any of those characters in the old testament before i did her studies. You learn the names, the stories, you get excited about the Bible, and she funny and interesting to listen to for the most part. I would have stuck with her, but her newer stuff is just too Calvinist. My favorite of the three i have done was David because it is a really exciting story and I never got bored. Please emphasize at some point that what she really has is a good structure for a well-paced study of the bible and she isn’t boring. I really think that’s why she has the Methodists. That, and the fact that none of us know anything about the Bible
That last line is flippant but it’s true for more people than you think!
All the above said, in an ideal situation personality shouldn’t dictate whether a study is good or not. From another female blogger Kim who reviewed The Patriarchs study:
A bible study should NOT rest on the strength of the speaker; it ought to rest with the strength of how God’s Word is presented and explained. When we rely on style alone, it becomes a matter of taking the Scripture and adjusting it to make us look more dynamic. That will invariably involve more personal narrative than exposition, and then where are the students left? Nothing wrong with personal narrative; it just should NOT form the bulk of the teaching.
Excitement is contagious, but instead of supporting a UMC equivalent, Cokesbury went where the money was, to our shame.
Conclusions, Suggestions, and Call for Resources
In short (for those of you that skip to the conclusions), there’s three things about the Beth Moore phenomenon within the United Methodist Church.
- Moore offers biblical criticism that is anti-intellectual even though it wraps itself in appeals to a commentary (one that interprets Scripture literally). There’s a difference between using biblical criticism and commentaries (which she does) and valuing intellectual engagement with the cultural context of the Scripture (which she typically doesn’t but has started to use more with her more recent material, thankfully).
- Moore’s expressed theology does not fit within a Wesleyan system. Her reliance on special revelation and emphasis on determinism often requires a pastoral care response that must deal more with the problems with that theological framework than the personal problem the individual has.
- There is undoubtedly an equivalent voice to Beth Moore in the UMC, but the publishing house and Cokesbury bookstores sold Moore (and now David C. Cook too! Argh!) instead of finding and supporting a comparative UM voice. We give money to the Baptists in our United Methodist bookstores and invite in a theology that John Wesley opposed fervently.
For me, any teacher who disregards scholarship and paints a very different image of God than I’m comfortable with would be very difficult to deal with in a Sunday School setting or a women’s group study. If I spend all my time building up a Methodist theology in my church, why would I want a Calvinist theology that is antithetical being taught (and indeed, Wesley is one of the few evangelists of his time that resisted Calvinism). Thus, if someone is trying to burn your theological house down, why let them in and run unchecked?
Even though one-liners to prohibit Beth Moore studies are entertaining, here’s some suggestions for dealing with Moore Kudzu in your congregation:
- Teach the studies yourself. This is by far the #1 suggestion. If you are a clergyperson or Sunday School leader who is well versed in United Methodist doctrine, it might be most helpful to allow the group to watch the video with the requirement that you be given time to respond at the end. By the third session of this, one of my clergy friends who did this had the participants look at her whenever they heard something out-of-sync with United Methodism. It works and it meets people where they are, but only if the clergyperson is well versed to handle it. And honestly it may stop people from asking for it so they don’t have to hear your comparisons! Ha!
- Continue to not allow Moore and print off this blog post as a conversation starter. Educate and show your congregation why Moore is problematic. Engage the person in conversation about these issues and why it is out of your pastoral care for them that you think it is not helpful.
- Lift up an alternative suggestion and emphasize WHY it is important to hear the voice of women in our same ecosystem. There’s a whole range of UM women who have great books, studies, and work even if they don’t have the same cadence or rhythm of Moore. I’m not going to add my preferences at the moment–I’d rather other voices lift up their experiences below. If you have an alternative suggestion, mention it below in the comments and the compilation will be published as a future blog post (and this one will be updated too).
Your turn! Requests for further engagement:
- Share who the alternatives are! There are a ton of United Methodist women (or other religious leaders whose expressed theology doesn’t inherently conflict with Wesleyan systems ie. Calvinism) who are excited about the Bible and offer comparable experiences for pastors and laity who want similar exposure. Who are they? What has been your experience? Leave them as comments and we’ll publish them for a future post.
- Comment below your experience of a Beth Moore study. Remember to read the ABSOLUTELY disclaimers above before you accuse me of discrediting yours or Moore’s faith. If you’ve had a good experience of Beth Moore and have grown as a follower of Christ, I couldn’t be happier for you. Comment, please!
Thanks for reading and sharing.
(Photo Credit: [1] “Beth Moore Live Simulcast 2010” by Brian Hendrix, Creative Commons share on Flickr; [2] “frustration” by e-magic, Creative Commons share on Flickr)
I asked a similar questions when a group of ladies wanted to do a Beth Moore Bible Study in the congregation I was serving in and my concerns were similar. What does Beth Moore have to bring to a Lutheran tradition? (The short answer was nothing.) But, I was outvoted. The small group leader was the Sr. Pastor’s wife. Many issues here though!
Hi, Craig. I sympathize with your point of view – although I am a woman. What I can guess, however, is that that could be exactly the center of the debate: After centuries of male-dominated Biblical teaching (not much theology here I can find on the surface), I think there are millions of women out there who find a woman teacher exhilarating, especially if she is what these people find to be a “good orator” (for my taste, such a stage presence reminds me more of ADHD, but that is another topic).
I therefore agree heartily with the last point in the blog post: Find an infectious well educated woman theologian and promote a more qualified loyal opposition!
Schisms in the Church of God. I am amazed.
Asbury Seminary’s new Seedbed project (of which I am a member) is at least partially seeking to address this need. There are theologically grounded, enthusiastic distinctly UM voices that are not being heard. One that I personally love is Carolyn Moore of Mosaic UMC. We have the people; we simply haven’t shared their talents as we should have. I look forward to helping to address this in the near future. Seedbed launches January 6th, 2012. To keep up with it you can check out http://asburyseedbed.com
the Methodist voice is absent from the airwaves. beth Moore and others are not. Our best communicators/teachers need to be on television and on radio shows talking about life and faith from a wesleyan perspective. we have something wonderful to share and are hiding it under a bushel.
Wesleyan voices have been heard, for example those of Shane Stanford (now at Christ Church in Memphis) or Missy Buchanan (who writes primarily to older adults), but it is true that it is far less often.
Our UM church’s Beth Moore study gets a lot of Baptists because they are free to ask questions in our environment. I wonder if they realize that according to Beth they had no free will in the matter.
*snort*
Not to make light of anything at all, but I cannot help but to wonder if BM would be so wildly popular if she were not also very attractive. I’ve not heard anything and I’ve given her very little time, but my wife (who grew up Southern Baptist) has begun reading some of her books. Aside from that, I have been extremely dismayed that Cokesbury has sold (and pushed) considerable material that is not distinctly United Methodist (Max Lucado comes to mind). Maybe it is little wonder that the only real Methodist source we have is the Book of Discipline as a way of explaining why people are flocking to more charismatic churches.
You would have to be criminally naive to consider her looks out-of-bounds. She doesn’t bleach her hair to make herself smarter. Looks are everything in today’s world, for both men and women. I just read an article about test prep services in Hong Kong where prospective tutors spends thousands on make overs and glamor shots [prep sessions are done via jumbotron – kinda like a PK rally!]
Is Beth Moore the only theological problem in the UMC? Our church hired a Baptist twenty-something because he “connected” with the kids. The term “rock star” was actually used. The boy was completely unprepared to teach anyone and only seemed comfortable when on stage singing. The activities and missions that the youth group participate din were also baptist affiliated. When he left for a gig in real Baptist church, I had to write a email requesting an actual UM minister and program.
I have begun to wonder the real issue is that the entire UMC has failed to keep up with the need to teach actual Methodism. The congregations are full of families that have shopped their way into the building. Many have no idea that a uniquely Methodist theology even exists let alone what it might be like!
I totally agree. I wonder also if other AC’s have the same as ours – the Bishop has appointed several people who aren’t UM clergy (other denominations) within the AC. A friend who is a member at one of the churches a retired Pres. cergy is serving says that the Pres. clergyperson says all the time, “I am not United Methodist and never will be!” If you don’t know, understand, respect and preach United Methodist theology, then WHY SERVE IN THE UMC???
It was one of my seminary professors who wrote the Uppity Women series (which means I got an advanced copy at a cheaper cost…), but to be fair– she’s UCC (A former UM). The video doesn’t capture the lecture itself…
I am not a Beth Moore fan, but I get why she is popular. If we have female Bible teachers in the UMC who can match Beth’s passion and charisma while being faithful to our Wesleyan theology, I would like to see it. Most of the video based curriculum that I have seen from Cokesbury doesn’t come close.
AMEN AMEN and AMEN!!!! This is one of the many reasons why I felt compelled to start my blog. I’m female, I’m Methodist, I’m just a lay member but I felt strongly that there was a need for someone like me to be out there in the “Methoblog world”. I just wish there were more!
I would love to connect with you. After 33 years of pastoring churches and feeling that I’ve had to fight this battle alone, it is awesome to see a lay woman stepping up!
Trudy – there’s no “just” a lay person, particularly in the UMC. We are all called in our own ways, and the work that you’re doing is a part of what makes the church great. Thank you and please don’t sell yourself short. I’m also a lay woman and have a blog but don’t keep up with it near as regularly as I’d like. Perhaps we can just keep spreading the word and put a blog circle together…
I agree with Scott.
My grandmother always said that if you didn’t know why you were a (United) Methodist, you didn’t deserve to be one! That’s one of the things that is problematic – so many UMw don’t know WHY they are Methodists!
Georgia, your grandmother’s sassy sentiment echoes some of my private musings.
I have sometimes found it difficult to tease substantive answers to “Why are you Methodist?” from my congregants. They might say that they’ve been members since they were children, or they walked up front during the Methodist revival instead of the Baptist revival, or they married into the church. In some of our meetings or small groups, a more complex answer can emerge, with my congregants (and especially women) feeling free to not take the Bible literally.
Overall, I find that there is a deep need in the South for United Methodism to define itself as unique and distinct from the Southern Baptist ethos. It saddens me when I can’t tell a difference between our more fundamentalist members and our Baptist neighbors. I hope that we can publicly and proudly offer a unique alternative to judgmental Calvinism.
Brad,
I think you hit on a good point. We have an identity crisis from allowing others to define us. I saddens me greatly especially since I did not grow up with Wesleyan theology. What appeals to me the most about Wesley is the both/and instead of either/or mentality. I grew up with cut and dry, black and white absolutes with no grace whatsoever. I truly Thank God for Wesley and the core of his message…it has been very liberating!
I’m a former UM and a former manager of a Cokesbury Bookstore. UMPH has a long way to go in doing right by UMs Wesleyan heritage as far as curriculum is concerned. But then the UM church is no longer Wesleyan either, for the most part.
I find Beth Moore to be dispicable and I am female clergy working as a chaplain.
You are so right! When we were told 30 years ago that “Churches don’t want pastors with good theology. They want pastors with good personalities” we should have seen this coming. People need good theology. They may not want it but they NEED it and when our money is spent giving them candy instead of milk and meat we get a sick church. I love Wesleyan theology. When clergywomen get together, it seems they are all way more liberal than Wesley ever was. Maybe we need to begin a Wesleyan Clergywomen’s Network (I had hope Renew would be this but… ) where we can nurture those who can compete with the Beth Moores in our culture.
Love this!!!! What a thoughtful and well researched post. Starkey did his job with you. As a woman I completely agree on all accounts. I particularly agree with one of your final points….there are so few other options. I have to admit I have read little of Beth Moore….maybe the first paragraph of the back of a couple of books. I will say, I do not like the ideas that come from people who do study her theology. It is out dated, irrelevant and does not at all express my experience with God as a woman. There are so many thoughtful women theologians out there…..I just hope that some will come forward with as much gusto as Moore has in the past few years. By the way, what ever happened to that happy little Education Committee that Emler spoke about that would never let this crap darken the door of a United Methodist Church? Those were the days! 🙂
One young and developing Bible teacher in the UMCm who also happens to be female, is Jessica LaGrone. See her blog post about her first DVD study here: http://www.jessicalagrone.com/2011/05/my-new-bible-study-series-is-finally-out/.
She is currently developing another “Namesake”.
Jessica is solidly UM who deals with Scripture from an orthodox and Wesleyan perspective (my words). She is one of the pastors at The Woodlands UMC north of Houston.
Thanks Mike!
You can see more about the Women in the Word curriculum (the story of Genesis told through the generations of women) here:
http://store.thewoodlandsumc.org/categories/Renew-Bible-Studies/
We’ve just finished recording Namesake (a study of lives changed and names changed in Scripture) and it should be out early next year. It is intentionally a co-ed study, since my calling long-term is not to produce curriculum only for women.
My wife attended a Beth Moore study at another (non – UM) congregation for a couple of reasons:
1. We are a couple in our 30s, and the UMW group in our congregation was grandmothers only – I mean, the UMW circle just had no appeal whatsoever. Nice ladies, but their life concerns and hers were a lot different. This Beth Moore study group had a diverse range of ages and provided childcare during the study, something the UMW didn’t think to do when they would meet. Maybe attempting to compare a Beth Moore study group to a UMW circle is apples and oranges, but our experience tends to be that UMW is about the only thing going for women in UM congregations.
2. She was given a personal invitation to come by a friend in that church.
3. She appreciated that it led to good discussion and required some homework. It helped her tend to her spiritual life. The UMW, in contrast, didn’t seem too concerned with helping her grow in faith, but in getting her to volunteer in help with fundraisers.
4. Yes, the importance of style cannot be overstated – my wife enjoyed it because she finds Moore to be a gifted speaker who could make her laugh out loud with her stories.
5. Finally, she takes everything in stride, meaning she listened with a critical ear for theology that didn’t sit quite right with her. She was blessed by a lot the Beth Moore teaching, and filtered out the stuff that she sensed wasn’t Wesleyan.
I have a great suggestion… Bible Study Fellowship! It is FREE, provides child instruction, you can even bring your babes in arms. BSF has been around for over 50 years and is still just as pertinent and inspiring as it was in the beginning because it is based on GOD’S WORD! Only the Bible is used, if you want to look in a commentary, do it after the class. Questions are answered (yes, there IS homework which teaches you to have a Quiet Time with God daily) in a small 15 lady group session where you can interact and hear others answers. Then a lecture by a vivacious interesting Bible Based teaching leader and then notes to bring it all together. The best part, NON DENOMINATIONAL! I am a UM but first and foremost I am a CHRISTIAN who reads God’s Word. The best part of the study is that it is inclusive, baby, pre-schoolers, school age children, women, working women, men, college students young and old can all study the same study at the same time… all over the world we are all studying the Acts of the Apostles this year! There are Home Discussion pages, Home Training lessons and notes and questions. Denominations are never discussed which makes it even more important. I don’t care what you know until I know that you care! The Ask Seek and Knock prayer requests are certainly another facet to see that God does care for us and DOES NOT CAUSE BAD things to happen to us!!!
I have been in and out of this study for almost 30 years and it has given me the foundation to do what they tell us to do, go back to our Home Church and USE IT!!!
Thank you for mentioning BSF. I was feeling pretty down about then with all the negative. I couldn’t figure out what I needed to do in response or if there was anything at all I could do as “only” a lay person. Yes, I read the other response that there is no such thing in the UMC as only a lay person and having just completed the 2 Year Academy for Spiritual Formation, I do know there is a call there for me to do more than I am doing.
Bible Study Fellowship was very important in my life, as were the Women’s Retreats put on by the Florida Annual Conference of the UMC, my SS class, home fellowship group, etc. I’m a little older so not so upset about the women and teaching thing. I have been in Beth Moore studies at a UM Church and fortunately had a strong Biblical background previously. We UMs are so diverse I can see how the Beth Moore studies take hold. The comments about us not knowing what we believe are convicting and unfortunately true. In this age, however, when what matters most when people pick out a church home isn’t necessarily the denomination, it’s even more true that a church’s members don’t necessarily believe the same things. One of the great things about the UMChurch, I think, is our freedom to discuss, even Scripture, and to accept each person where ever they are on their faith journey. I believe it was John Wesley who said in effect, ‘if we agree on the major things (like salvation), then give me your hand.’ I don’t know what I’ve been inspired to DO, but I’m certainly convinced there is still much to be done.
One person has mentioned those who have gone to the charismatic movement. Many of them have gone there because of the lack of nuture of the spiritual in our mainline protestant denominations. Fortunately we are returning that part of our faith where it belongs — as an intregal part of our faith. Presently that is a major part of what I am called to do at my church, which sometimes isn’t an easy task particularly in a church with older members.
I really do hope this conversation will result in some names of Biblical teachers to whom we can send others. Again, thank you for the reminder about Bible Study Fellowship — unfortunately it’s not available anywhere near where I currently live.
Whoa…serious stuff…which sparks a serious question from me, as UM clergy.
I grew up Southern Baptist, was a 4 point Calvinist (I never really latched on to Perseverance of the Saints), attended a Southern Baptist university, have been on staff at several Southern Baptist Churches, discovered John Wesley (by accident and fell in love with the theology) got kicked out of the SBC church I was serving because I was teaching grace and now I would call myself a Wesleyan United Methodist. Now, that being said – I love Beth Moore – I always have but this post concerns me – mostly because I never thought of this before. It strikes close to home because the women’s Small Group (I am over discipleship and education) will soon be starting a Beth Moore study. I, like you Jeremy, am not a woman. So, I won’t be taking this study – the leader of the study is not clergy – and I don’t know that she would feel competent enough to teach the Wesleyan tradition….do you think I should reconsider the facilitator for the group or try and grab one of my friends in ministry (ie a female UM retired clergy – who would be more than competent) to attend the class?
You inspired me Jeremy! My blog post for today picks up on your blog post (with link to your post to boot)! 🙂 Pardon me, while I go run for cover….
I greatly appreciate much of the content of this article. I, too, have struggled at previous appointments with the Beth Moore issue. I think it is absolutely appropriate to address the non (perhaps even anti) Wesleyan/Arminian angles of any education materials offered in a United Methodist setting. I am sure we should be questioning Cokesbury/UMPH’s failure to offer real alternatives, as well as its decision to “go where the money is” and sell so much merchandise that is decidedly Reformed/Calvinistic. We should bemoan the lack of clarity in United Methodism about who we are and what it means to be Wesleyan/Arminian.
At the same time, let us have some intellectual integrity about ourselves. Many UM’s who dislike Beth Moore don’t do so because she is Reformed/Calvinist or Southern Baptist, except insofar as those things generally equate to one being theologically conservative. To support this, I point to the number of moderate-to-progressive Reformed thinkers whom you will seldom, if ever, hear disparaged among United Methodists (i.e., Walter Brueggemann and Eugene Peterson).
The reason so much Calvinism sneaks in the back door of United Methodist churches is because we are so preoccupied over the conservative or progressive bents of our own teachers, that anyone with any passion about anything is “vetted” out by our system, allowing only milquetoast teachers or materials to receive the denominational seal of approval. For example, one of the alternatives listed above is Jessica LaGrone. Jessica would be an excellent alternative to Beth Moore for United Methodists. However, she went to Asbury and is on staff at the Woodlands UMC. For many people, because she has a conservative United Methodist pedigree, Jessica might be considered worse than Beth Moore. I imagine it is no coincidence her study was published by the Woodlands UMC and not by Cokesbury or UMPH. I wonder if she even tried? We don’t have lots of good, solid, passionate Wesleyan material because Cokesbury and UMPH won’t or can’t publish very many passionate Wesleyans due to the political pressure exerted on them. To the average Mary and Joe Pew Sitter, passion beats out content any day. We have made our own beds, brothers and sisters, and now we are lying in it.
One thing that does strike me (no surprise here) is the level of vehemence Beth Moore generates. A perusal of the comments above finds one suggestion Beth Moore’s popularity is due to her attractiveness. This comment, made by a man, as of yet has not been contradicted. In fact, it was seconded by another man (try to say that about an attractive progressive thinker, and you might as well tie the rope you’ll be strung up with). Others use terms such as “despicable” and “crap.” Can’t you just feel the love of Christ? Now I am making assumptions and employing stereotypes here, which I know is wrong, but I think it is fairly safe to surmise many people who harbor this level of animosity toward Beth Moore would be among the first to say we need to be more tolerant and open-minded (say on the issue of homosexuality, for instance). It seems we are all at some level intolerant fundamentalists. We just had different fundamentals.
Should we have concerns about Beth Moore and similar teachers/materials being utilized in United Methodist settings? Absolutely, because she holds to a theological framework (Reformed/Calvinist) which on key points is diametrically opposed to our own Wesleyan/Arminian heritage. But let’s be honest. Most UM’s who don’t like Beth Moore could care less about that. Their concern is she’s a conservative evangelical with a large following.
Fantastic observation, Billy.
I appreciate greatly both this post from Billy and Jeremy’s original. I am a lot more informed now about Beth Moore. I do hope we can find some Wesleyan alternatives. On the laity side of things, one good female teacher I know of is Karen Chaffin from Ardmore UMC. (She’s my friend’s mom). She’s more from the Kay Arthur tradition than Beth Moore. I’m sure there are others both lay and clergy, such as the minister from the Woodlands who has been mentioned more than once. Is it really true that TPTB at Cokesbury / UMPH are more reluctant to promote conservative Methodists than nondenomabaptists? And if so, is it purely business or theological bias?
I suspect TPTB, while every other bookstore and publishing service is suffering, go where the money is and hopes the pastors fill in the theological gaps. So unless we do, then there’s no finger plugging the hole in the dam.
The call to produce quality Wesleyan curriculum has been, for me, both a proactive and reactive event. I feel a sense that God has given me something to say and am excited to do so in a format that can be shared beyond one local church. At the same time, I’m responding to numerous requests like the ones listed here of people who can’t seem to find great studies that represent great Biblical teaching from a Wesleyan background. Maybe we shouldn’t spend so much time asking “why haven’t we?” and turn to “how do we?”
I will say this, Beth Moore has a lot of great things to offer. I know many women who have gone deeper in their understanding of Scripture than ever before because they like her style and are motivated to continue studying. But I’ve also had to do a lot of corrective teaching and pastoral counseling to help people understand that God isn’t causing bad things in their lives to test them and try them. Beth has some great content and a compelling style, but she’s just not singing in our key.
Regarding the criticism of the UM Publishing House and Cokesbury: let’s also note that they developed the Sisters: Bible Study for Women materials in response to customer requests for alternatives to Beth Moore. I believe there are 5 of them, all still available. See http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/curriculum.aspx?sid=276
The “Problem of Beth Moore” points out a few persistent issues within Methodism and Mainlines generally. In the first, conservative Methodists are so “biblically” driven and in other ways politically and culturally akin to Southern Baptists and other conservative Christians that their recognition of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, the historical relationship to Anglicanism and recognition that holiness is social and extends beyond personal morality (except of course the cultural hot-topics of homosexuality and abortion) has been lost. Essentially biblicist and allied with their culturally conservative brethren Methodist distinctives are diminished or forgotten.
On the other hand, progressive Methodists, as in other Mainline groups, have pastors who are reluctant to disrupt the received beliefs or theological naivete of their congregants. They also have cultural allies external to the church. This kind of accommodation and preaching to the mild middle does not promote theological or denominational identity either.
Third, I think that religious education is weak. It is neither robust nor historically focused enough. Pastors and people should know more about Wesley, the development of the broad streams of Wesleyanism and the theological journey those historical developments are connected to. Religious Education has to move beyond Bible study, devotional individualism and tips and tricks for your personal spiritual journey.
There is a greater problem though. If Methodism is what Methodist people do, and Methodists no longer identify with their historical roots or recognize and participate in unique and salient aspects of Methodist identity, can you ever really correct for that? Methodism becomes what the self-identified Methodist actually does even if it is historically aberrant and co-opted by cultural forces that would be inimical to earlier Methodists. In this case, for better or for worse, Beth Moore IS Methodist.
Recently I have thought a lot of Christian education and how we teach the Bible to our UM community. I agree with you that our CE is often toothless and not stimulating enough to hold people’s attention- young and old! Your explanation of why that could be is interesting, but there’s not much hope for improvement in it. How would you suggest we improve on Christian ed?
Here’s my own way of handling Beth Moore’s study when I was Pastor of Discipleship at a Methodist Church that used her resources…particularly her study on Daniel. I felt it was the right balance to help people glean the good from her work and reject the bad: http://jmsmith.org/blog/critiquing-beth-moore-this-could-be-dangerous/
Feel free to share with any others who have used or are using her Daniel study!
JM
That is an excellent appendix and a good discussion.
I did not realize one of the big beefs with Moore was premillenialism. So the theological issues are not just Calvinism vs. Armnianism.
My wife (also a UM clergy) led a “Sisters” group for quite some time. It is led by mainline clergywomen, accessible and intelligent. Her group was really enthusiastic and the study directly led them to become better acquainted and involved in their community.
http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/curriculum.aspx?sid=276
This is interesting. I just left an Arminian/Wesleyan church where her teachings were popular. I think churches have to decide whether they will have more of an open environment for teachers from all persuasions or not. If you do, you run the risk of having sub-par or teachings inconsistent with your own being taught. The other thing is, once you allow this type of teaching in, how do you get it out particularly when it creates a popular following? All some lay people know is that they’ve been blessed. They may not know theology or even care about it. They just know that she gave them hope and encouragement. Maybe the answer lies in teaching your people theology and in particular your own church’s theology and teach them why it matters. Hopefully then, they will make decisions regarding various Bible teachers with greater discernment.
Let’s remember that there are women out there (of all denominational persuasions) for whom being a woman is not as relevant to our faith as some people would have us think. I support feminism, the ordination of women, etc., but am not swayed by Bible Studies that promote “women’s experiences” over anyone else’s. On this point alone, I resist the teachings of women like Moore.
I agree with you, Nancy. As a woman, I don’t feel that my gender/ gender role or sex is a defining factor in my spiritual life. Growing up an an Evangelical community, I had a hard time with Bible studies and groups that assumed I would only be concerned with things like family relationships and what goes on in my home. I quickly became bored with small group sessions that amounted to, “Let’s talk about our future husbands.” Gag. That’s not “meeting my spiritual need,” it’s stereotyping me.
Still, UM women could really use some time and space to talk about things men just don’t get… like how to live a life focused on God in a world that pressures us to look perfect, have all the neatest new stuff, and cook like a professional. Women often bear the brunt of the time crunch families experience in our overscheduled age; more and more women are becoming the primary breadwinners. It would be good to have a time to work on relaxing in a faith setting and talk about not feeling guilty for taking time for ourselves. In short, I think a Bible study aimed at women would really help a lot of people, as long as it doesn’t stereotype or trivialize, and takes aim at the pressing issues facing women today.
You can add me to the list of spunky, moderate UM female clergy that would love to write an alternative for Cokesbury. I’ve done two Beth Moore studies and did enjoy them but was always cautious of her Baptist theology. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that, ” but it just isn’t Wesleyan.
I’ve long been a proponent of sitting and watching the video with those who are studying it; raising issues/concerns/whatever; and talking about it like grown-ups. I just don’t see why people get so worked up over this when there are so many other thing so much more worthy of being worked up over. (How’s that for ending a sentence with a preposition … or two!)
“Cokesbury and UMPH went the wrong way on the Beth Moore phenomenon. Instead of seeking out and offering publishing deals to a spunky United Methodist woman who loves the bible (a dozen of them I know just off the top of my head), they sold out and went where the money was and supported Moore’s publications.”
I think this misses the point that Cokesbury and the UMPH are a business. We can wax philosophical about what issues we have with a particular point of view but until we put our money where our mouths are we have no choice but allow a business to make money where and how they need to make it. If they have to sell a few books or some curriculum that we don’t like to keep their doors open I’m ok with that. I don’t have to agree with the content of the curriculum but I have to remember that in the days when book stores are closing their doors because people are shopping through alternative avenues at least we as United Methodists still have a physical book store. And even that is shrinking. If we really want to see stuff like Moore’s not being sold in Cokesburys we have to buy the other stuff and we have to buy it from Cokesbury in quantities that justify not carrying Moore’s stuff.
I am a retired returned United Methodist Missionary who spent my overseas time in Kenya. My field is international community health nursing and development but like all missionaries I had an active part in the Methodist Church of Kenya. That is how I came to know the now Rev. Grace Imathiu (Jones). She was then dynamically teaching a full Sunday School of 80 children…it was amazing. In time I helped her get a scholarship to Wesylan University in West Virginia. There she was called to ministry and was scholarshipped through the West Virginia Conference of UMC. After she completed seminary she returned to preach in Kenya for some time where she attracted a very large following, especially of youth. Circumstances led her back to the US. At this time she is in the Wisconsin Confrence and also does Bible Teaching at many national and international sites. In fact, she prefers to call herself a Bible teacher. Her sermons are all Bible teaching and the most consistently dynamic and clear of any I have heard. I would put her up against Beth Moore any day! Here is my suggestion: look up this fantastic resource, work with her to begin to do videotaped Bible studies. By now she is a wife and a mother who will resonate with women. (Example: One of her sermons is titled, “Mommy Fix It”. ) She is also a New Testament scholar. She has written 3 books: Words of Fire, Spirit of Grace; Matthews Message: Good News for the New Millennium; and Journeying Through the Days 2011: A Calendar and Journey for Personal Reflection. Her books can be found on Amazon and she can be reached through the Wisconsin UMC Conference office. Definitely I can say that Grace Imathiu (Jones) is the Methodist answer to Beth Moore. Feel free to contact me at dancematiki@yahoo.com for more information.
I second this thought. Rev Grace Imathiu is an exemplary and engaging bible teacher and preacher. I still remember her bible studies at the 2008 Congress on Evangelism and she is a welcome preacher at the Festival of Homiletics.
Yes, UMPH is a business. But it is also the official publishing arm of the UMC. Perhaps it is time that the powers that be at UMPH be reminded of that fact and strongly encouraged (and perhaps mandated by General Conference) to do more than is currently being done to develop and support United Methodist/Wesleyan voices.
Great post Jeremy! I’ve been dealing with more and like minded studies in our congregation, I appreciate you extensive (in a good way) response to her and determinism in general
Feel free to find my full response on my blog: http://vocationandvoice.com.
However, in the meantime, suffice it to say I agree with commenters here who lament the lack of robust religious education in the UMC and other denominations. And on the one hand, I am encouraged that we are discussing the education of women in our churches — and also discouraged that it is 2011 and we still have to have this discussion, as if the under-education, particularly theological education, of women in our churches hasn’t been an issue for, well, nearly forever.
As for why Beth Moore may be popular in Methodist churches, well . . . you don’t just not let the person burning the house down in, you also aren’t supposed to give her the tools to burn the house down in the first place. In other words, the UMC has laid this foundation itself, particularly here in the deep South, by not being fundamentally different from our conservative Protestant neighbors — functionally or theologically. Of course Beth Moore plays — in many cases she is more or less preaching to her own choir, no matter what the sign outside says.
Jenny, I responded on your blog, but suffice to say I agree with you that a more proper emphasis on our distinctive theology and practice of that theology is needed at the local level to augment and shift the pedestrian theologies of our congregations.
First, before i start ranting,i would like to say i am methodist.
First of all, she is NOT a Methodist, she is Baptist, so why would what she says strictly adhere to the “Weslyan” way of teaching???? Only Methodists follow that, and again, she is NOT Methodist. Second of all who gives a crap if she dyes her hair and wants to look nice????? I’m betting most of the women reading this do the same exact thing. Does doing these things make you an illegitimate source of knowledge of the God’s word? No, I don’t think so. I don’t see why some donominations can’t except others. It’s like you guys are shunning them. You’re all “oh, it’s baptist, so that means it’s wrong and i can’t except it”.
The problem is not with Beth Moore, she’s fine as she is. The problem is teaching Beth Moore in our Methodist classes without a framework to show where we diverge from her. Determinism is an unhealthy belief in a Wesleyan system, and the point of this blog post is not to bash Beth Moore but to show how inappropriate her theology and biblical criticism is in a Methodist context.
The comments about her physical appearance are the commentators, so I don’t have any need to respond to them.
I would gently guide you back to fully reading the full presentation above you. I think you chose too quickly on the defensive side. Nothing is “wrong because it is Baptist” but rather is being called into question for its place within another denomination. I would 98% guarantee that any UMC curriculum is NOT being used in a Baptist setting.
One Methodist church invited Jewish New Testament scholar Amy-Jill Levine to do a lecture series. She is a bona fide biblical scholar and funny and insightful! I commend her.
AJ Levine is HILARIOUS. Heard her for three days do bible studies. Very engaging and humorous and ends in insightful powerful statements.
Makes me wonder if we have to apply the same criticism as Moore: Levine is not Methodist or even Christian (she’s Jewish). But if her expressed theology can contribute to and not burn down a Methodist house, perhaps there’s no harm done by people who don’t wear their theologies on their sleeves.
Sorry, forgot the link: Here’s a recommendation from a Methodist church: Amy Jill Levine — http://www.stpaulshelena.org/2011LectureSeries
Good stuff, I think you said it well. As I am not a huge fan of Beth Moore’s theology, I do think she is a fantastic preacher/leader that has battled & and overcome a lot of sexism and egotistical SB male pastors who (lets be honest) can’t preach half as well as she can. I do agree that her quasi-fatalistic doctrine does have the potential to harm, but I guess at the end of the day we all have the potential to do more harm than good and I’m not of fan of stoning the prophets. No theology, wesleyan or not, has nailed it. I think we all need to keep things into perspective.
I’m always sad to see the body of Christ so heavily split along denominational lines. Any time we as Christians engage in Bible studies by authors outside the Bible, we have to be constantly discerning and on guard, regardless of the teacher’s denomination – all humans will err. But I have no doubts that I could take insight from my fellow brothers and sisters across almost all “mainstream” denominational lines, as long as I have my critical thinking hat on. (As an aside, although I know not an issue to the UMC, Beth Moore herself never sits in authority over men – unless they attend a study described as for “women” in spite of the description – due to her own belief system…just FYI in relation to the beginning of the article.)
I am not a theologian, but simply a woman trying to grow in my faith and knowledge by church attendance, Sunday school classes, and bible study. As part of an 8,000 member church, I am not privy to discussions with the pastors about those items of faith that I don’t understand. And so I rely on my teachers and my research. I grew up in the Lutheran Church and have been a member of two Methodist churches and a Presbyterian church. I honestly cannot tell you where one doctrine ends and another begins. I have been actively engaged in bible studies for the last 15 years of my life – Community Bible Study for 10 years, Renew for one year, and Beth Moore studies for the remainder. I remember that Beth Moore commented at the beginning of one of those studies that she was Baptist, born and raised. And that she realized that some of what she would teach would be in conflict with what the listener believed, but that was OK – we could all still learn from one another. She is very up front about that. She is not completely self-taught, although I can’t tell you what her educational background is. I do know this: I have enjoyed, and learned from her studies. I am probably going to be called very naive, but I really don’t see where Wesleyism, Methodism, whatever you want to call it, is necessary in a bible study. I am able to filter out those things with which I do not agree and the small group discussions that go with the studies are very helpful. I just attended my first session of “Believing God” and I am looking forward to the rest of the study.
Having said that, I would also like to add that I am blessed to have Jessica LaGrone as a pastor in my church, and she is on fire!! I have found every sermon she has given since I joined to be powerful, and recently enjoyed, and learned, from her series on “Namesake”. Given the time, I feel she will be a force in Methodist bible studies. Perhaps other denominations will find them worthy too. 🙂
Conclusion: I feel that if we have to lock our beliefs, religious perceptions, whatever you want to call them, into one narrow theological view, we miss out on the blessings that other denominations have to offer. And Beth Moore’s bible studies are one of those blessings.
Well put. Thanks for sharing.
Amen!! I completely agree with you. I was born and raised Methodist, have done Precepts, Bible Study Fellowship, and when I finish Breaking Free, will have done all of Beth Moore’s studies other than James, which comes out in Nov. All that being said, I bring my “Methodist upbringing” to all of the studies that I have done, and I don’t believe that God causes bad things to happen, allows – yes, causes – no. I believe I am a stronger Chrisitian because I have been exposed to a variety of Christian writers – both Methodist and non-Methodist. I don’t believe there are denominations in heaven.
As a young UM clergywoman, one of the first fall-outs I had upon arriving in a new appointment was in telling a group of women that I did not prefer Beth Moore studies, but I saw the appeal in them. I allowed them to have their study and since have directed them to other curriculum. Currently, we are studying The Worn Out Woman by Dr. Steve Stephens and Alice Gray with a good response thus far. Again, not a uniquely UM book, but it does address life as a female Christian with enough ambiguity that we can input our UM theology.
I also know several spunky female UM’s who have attempted to have studies published by UMPH or Cokesbury with little to no success – simply because it is a business and these “no name” women won’t sell. We can’t fault them for trying to keep their doors open in this economic condition. We can help them by buying the more UMC based curriculum, though.
Bottom line? Let’s find that young, beautiful, United Methodist-trained, Wesleyan biblical scholar, help her to make a bunch of studies/DVDs and promote the crap out of her!
Denominational lines are man made. The bible calls us to go and make disciples to the ends of the earth. Beth Moore is making disciples and she IS a Believer! At her last simulcast there were 180,000 people logged in watching by video screen! That is powerful! All these people gathered to worship (led incredibly by Travis Cottrell and praise team). With the rise of other religions in our country and around the world- I feel all christians should be more united no matter what our denomination. (born and raised UM – btw). We should seek to build up and not tear down! Do I agree with all other denominations??? Of course NOT! But, God has not called me to be Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Espicopalian, etc. If Beth Moore inspires you go deeper and wider into God’s kingdom because of her studies or because you think there should be more offered by the UMC – then go ye therefore! But, please be careful not to tear her or her ministry down just because she is not UM. People ARE still hungry for God’s word (her large audience/following is witness to that)- and we all need to be equipped to share God’s word not just the “Beth Moores” of the world.
This entire debate is a sad commentary on the state of Methodism in the US. Beth Moore inspires millions of women to learn and love the Bible, and to call upon the Lord to help lift them from whatever circumstances are defeating them. The author of this blog, whose intellectually elite paranoia targeted at Moore and her legions, exemplifies the dilemma facing the Methodist Church. Methodism is dying rapidly in America (just look at the historical and continuing losses of members) while Moore’s student populations are growing, primarily I believe because the UMC has settled for cultural relativism in its teachings. I have taken and led many Beth Moore courses and never have I interpreted, in full context, that she believes God “causes” a child to die (as an example) to teach us a lesson. Rather, God unexplainably allows things to happen, yet gives us His power and grace to overcome our circumstances with renewed life.
All this said, it is totally true the Methodist Church does not offer equally compelling material, if it did, it would be used. Why would we not want our denomination to thrive? As can also be seen by the slow, painful, but sure death of UMW, with it’s watered down offerings, one of the main educational attractions in our churches is the ability to offer Beth Moore classes. If we didn’t, many of our women would easily go elsewhere for them. Thank God for Cokesbury and their bravery in offering us their materials in the face of the paranoia typified in this blog . Of course we are always looking for good material to inspire us and to learn from, so I’d suggest instead of circling the wagons, you spend your time more effectively by creating something that is Biblically based as well as exciting and challenging.
You seem so concerned with “Wesleyan theology” and intellectual purism, yet I doubt John Wesley would recognize the Methodist Church today. Your comments are denominationally divisive, totally the opposite of Beth Moore’s messages. Whatever happened to “Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors”? Your’s clearly aren’t open.
Jean, thank you for your experience with the Beth Moore materials. It’s helpful to hear from everyone who has an experience with the lessons.
What you say is placed on the same field as the six women I quoted above, all of whom interpret Moore’s theology differently. For some, they receive her theology with exactly as you say. For others, they hear something different. One is an aberration or eisegesis…more than that and it becomes something to respond to. Clearly there are faithful UM women who are not receiving theological help from Moore. That does not make them wrong, and this blog posts gives a forum for those concerns and hope for alternate ideas for those who share them. I’m thankful for your experience and categorize it as anecdotal like the ones above.
‘Intellectual purism’ is also an interesting charge, assuming that the blog author knows the best theology individually. I believe the corporate form of this is called Orthodoxy, or ‘right teaching.’ The calls to action at the end of the post appeal to UM teachings not my personal beliefs. While I don’t practice orthodoxy in all my beliefs, Determinism is a cancer that dissolves the foundations of many faiths and one the women cited above clearly see in Moore’s curriculum. I would bring it into a conversation, clearly, but would not want it to be taught unchecked and unparalleled. There’s being ‘denominationally divisive’ and then there’s being prudent in my pastoral experience what is helpful theology that fits under an orthodox rubric.
Finally, you are correct John Wesley would not recognize the UMC today. The UMC is a merger and dis-merger of several paths, just as John Wesley brought together several paths in his own church. We are a different church than he began. What is important is to faithfully respond to our world as we believe Wesley would have while holding that in tension with our history of doctrines and biblical interpretation and corporate experience.
I hope you continue to offer your perspective and leadership in your local Methodist Church and focus on giving them a helpful theology to whatever befalls them in life.
You’ve clearly made my point, thank you.
Having chosen the Methodist faith (as opposed to being raised in it) for the past 30 years and as one who has completed almost every Beth Moore study that she has done I find the dialogue presented as interesting yet completely closed minded. The one comment that I most closely associated with what I have seen is the one about Methodist churches neglecting the growth in faith and spending too much time on fundraising and meeting the conference askings. I also found it interesting that so many people had comments yet had not completed her studies. The bottom line is not man’s interpretation of faith, but the faith itself. What Beth Moore has done is to open the door for so many women to grace, faith and commitment to Christ. Her encouragement to read commentaries, study the Word for oneself and lead a righteous life is bringing so many women (including Methodist women) to the love of Christ. Many of these comments are nit-picking and self-serving to the Methodist church. If the Methodist church is so intent upon preserving Methodism as opposed to bringing people to Christ then why aren’t they promoting evangelists who are women?
I for one will continue to serve Christ, work within my church and my community to develop disciples and send them forth to serve, as well as to continue to attend Beth Moore bible studies with my fellow church friends. We do not need to be indoctrinated into what it is to be Methodist. We only need to learn what it means to be a disciple of Christ.
I couldn’t agree with you more. ANY person who inspires women or men to spend time in God’s Word for themselves is worthy of recognition. Since when are we “Methodist” or “Baptist” or whatever. I thought we were BELIEVERS IN JESUS CHRIST trying to live a life in a relationship with HIM.
Methodist for almost 50 years but sadly disappointed in this commentary.
Pure bunk! Beth Moore is a marvelous Bible Study teacher. However, she has one major flaw: she is human and therefore able to make mistakes. Beth reiterates in nearly every one of her studies to hold what she says up to scripture. Find out for yourself whether what she says is true. She also encourages doing Bible studies from other teachers. Most Methodist studies are lukewarm, watered down theology, boring and loose interpretations of scripture. I am a literalist who is also a Methodist. I am not alone. All Methodist are not liberal. We need more teachers who are unafraid to teach that the Bible is the divine inspired, inerrant word of God.
I have to disagree regarding Beth Moore at least on two comments. Bias in the Bible need not be addressed by Beth or anyone. As the infallible Word of God, while the people about which the Bible speaks may have had biases, the scripture is without bias of the authors. If not, then it is not the infallible Word of God and Beth and everyone trying to teach it is a fraud. The other point mentioned is that Ms. Moore believes or teaches that God causes things like rape for a higher purpose. I have never gotten that from what she teaches. As God can not both cause and judge sin, it is impossible for God to “cause” sin for a higher purpose. What I get from her teaching which would be true of Joseph and Esther is to find the purpose where you are from the comfort you have received (II Cor 1:4). Only one familiar with a road can accurately point the way for someone else. Beth stands as a beacon of shame and suffering being redeemed.
I am wondering how many of you including the author of this debate have actually participated in a full study with Beth Moore? I find a lot of the criticism here unfounded. In the 8 studies that I have participated in a community Bible study I have learned far more than I would have ever learned alone. I have seen women of all walks from the churched to the lost be in these studies and the results have been a closer walk with God and women who have accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior. She has never “isolated” scripture, but backs up scripture with scripture rooting the study in Biblical facts and how it applies to our lives today. You should do a study from start to finish and then make your judgments.
Traci, did you read the study above? I had a half-dozen theologically-trained women do the studies and I reported their responses. Just because you had a good experience with Beth Moore doesn’t mean that others have to. They have given voice to an alternative experience, after having done studies from start to finish. I fail to see how that is not important to talk about.
Craig,
I think that you have no right to post a blog about someone’s studies, of which, you have never taken. I may disagree with a male preacher or theologian, but I have given both ample time to prove their points. One pastor, of which, I listened to lead small groups for several years(before he had gone on to become a pastor). After seeing many errors in his teachings and searching the scriptures through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was able to discern that they were inaccurate. So many critics, such as yourself, want to point the finger – when they should be more concerned with their own issues. And for the women that were supposedly “O-Ding” on Beth Moore, have obviously been placing her as a “false idol” in their minds (which can only be controlled by the person beholding the idolized individual).
Laura, as I wrote above, the studies were done by female pastors and clergy female spouses, not by me. I compiled their perceptions as a counter-point and to give voice to those women who feel left out of the Beth Moore Phenomenon.
For those women who are not convinced by Moore’s teaching and can point out the errors, would you rather them suffer in silence, fall away from the church, feel left out? Here their voices can be acknowledged and they can find strength in this community knowing they are not alone.
I have taken Beth’s Esther study and no where do I recall her making the statement quoted from one of your commentators that “God causes all things to happen, whether good or bad”. Once sin entered the world God ALLOWED bad things to happen, but though Jesus Christ we are able to find comfort and we know that God works in and through ALL things. I find the idea that the UMC church needs a counterpart to Beth Moore in a pretty woman to regurgitate UM doctrine absolutely hysterical!. Oh yeah, that’ll bring ’em beating down the doors!!!! How absurd!! Let me just say that after 50 years of being a UM, I left the denomination for a church where the Scripture is taught, as written, whether the message is easy to swallow or not. We need to be convicted by the word! We need to repent of our sins and turn away from them. Unfortunately, the UM church doesn’t seem to like that method. Scripture warns of the dangers of adding to or taking away from God’s word. The UMC has slowly been adopting a social gospel that allows people to be comfortable and accepting of their sins rather than repenting and turning away from them. No wonder the denomination is in decline.
I love Beth Moore! I’m a methodist. It seems to me this site is the very problem with Christianity…all caught up in the dogma and “rules” of religion instead of focusing on the personal RELATIONSHIP with Christ!
Personal Relationships with Christ are great but they have to be lived out in community, not in isolation. To figure out how to do that requires expectations of how you will interact with each other, or “rules” that eventually become “dogma.” If you are stuck with your personal relationship and see that as the end-all, then you are likely part of a faith community that hasn’t coalesced to figure out “life together” or has been burned out by the “life together” so you go to the other end of the pendulum swing. Given you are Methodist, that *is* a possibility. 😉
This is so interesting to me. I grew up in the Methodist Church. I so cried out to God in my youth for Him to show me how to live my life. Honestly, all I ever heard from church was that everyone was going to heaven (after an affirmation of faith, of course). I knew in my heart that somehow God was interested in every aspect of my life. I had many “conversations” with God where I cried out to Him asking how he wanted me to live. I knew it was wrong to be mean and treat each other hatefully, and I could not see that lived out in the Methodist Churches I attended.
I sincerely asked the Lord to reveal His word to me by His Holy Spirit, and I began to read the Bible on my own. Afterwards, I came to the belief that God DOES have a purpose for everything in our lives…the good, the bad, and the ugly. I don’t like going through the bad things, but I know that God never leaves me or forsakes me and carries me through them.
I challenge every “Methodist” or “Lutheran” or whoever has labeled themselves by doctrine, to ask the Lord to truly take over your heart and lead you by HIS spirit into the word of God. Of course, it is great to have scholars who have studied to guide you, UNLESS it explains every word of the Bible away!
I love all of you on here, but as you have guessed, I no longer sit in a church with a label. Some of you may be labeling me as a heretic. I just love God. I can hardly believe that Jesus suffered and died for me.
I have been to three Beth Moore studies. Some of them do have some Baptist doctrine (my husband of 42 years was raised Baptist), but the latest study on the book of James has wonderful scriptural convictions. We are to always test the teachings to see what is correct. If God is with her, we could be saying things against God Himself. If God is not with her, He will take care of her. Anyone seeking God with their whole heart should be able to discern His truth. It is our protection. Her study has made me seek the scriptures more thoroughly and attempt to cleanse my heart more truthfully. That alone has been worthy of my time and study. I believe that Beth is walking toward the Lord just like the rest of us that love Him are trying to do.
A fellow sojourner…
Melody
I agree with you Melody!!! Jesus is the way the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. I don’t see where it says in the bible if you are a Catholic or Luthern, or Methodist then you get into Heaven!!
If you have problems with the teachings of a sister in Christ, wouldn’t it be scriptural to contact her with your concerns, rather than slandering her in a public forum?
AMEN JUDY!!! And we can tell they are christians by the fruit that they bear!!
I find your article very critical and if I were researching different “religions” on which one I would like to become I would think twice about being Methodist based on your untruthful bias.I grew up Catholic, was baptized as an adult in a Baptist church, and now consider myself a non-denominational Christian. Jesus is my religion! More importantly he is my RELATIONSHIP!!! Of all the “religions” out there that profess Jesus Christ as Lord, believe everything he says he is in the bible, that he died on the cross for our sins, conquered death rose to be at the right hand of the Father, paid the price in full for our sins, and we accept that gift and ask him to come into our hearts then Jesus is the only thing that matters!!Then we have salvation and our name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. It doesn’t matter if you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Luthern etc….to get into heaven and live with Christ for eternity is only through Jesus! People get too caught up on their “religion” when they don’t practice the relationship and live it out in their everyday lives. Beth Moore is a Christian Godly woman. She has bible studies and books to help bring women to Christ and to minister to them. Nothing about her teachings are non biblical. What matters is that she is winning people for Jesus Christ and cares about their salvation for we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. I bet she has had more people (women) give their lives to Christ than you have. What you fail to realize is that you are all on the same team working for the same purpose to share Christ with others. I’m tired of different religions talking badly about others in different denominations or people. What I know , have witnessed, researched, and heard from other Christian leaders is that Beth Moore is a Godly woman and teaches God’s word out of the bible to others. I wonder what God thinks about you talking in such a way about one of his children and discrediting her works and teachings? I guess when you are both in Heaven with Jesus Christ you can ask him which one of you is right Beth Moore or you? I’m pretty sure since you will both be in Heaven you will already have your answer!
Love this comment. AMEN for Jesus. I am Methodist and it hurts my heart to see so much time and energy saying we “Methodist” need someone dynamic like her but to teach the way we want. I go to a Methodist Church with 5 Pastors. Each teach differently, have different experiences and don’t always agree on all issues. I LOVE THAT. What we can agree on is that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!!
I greatly appreciate ‘anon’s comments re: his wife’s attendance of Beth Moore study at a non-UMC. I totally disagree with this post: Anony says: “Our UM church’s Beth Moore study gets a lot of Baptists because they are free to ask questions in our environment. I wonder if they realize that according to Beth they had no free will in the matter.” Questions are asked freely at studies I attend as a UMC-er in other churches. And from a Biblical perspective, Beth Moore consistently refers to the fact that we are free in Christ.
Billy ends his very perceptive post with my own observation; “But let’s be honest. Most UM’s who don’t like Beth Moore could care less about that. Their concern is she’s a conservative evangelical with a large following.”
And thank you Nancy H. for your words.
Many posters speak of a lack of Wesleyan perspective and a lack of knowledge about ‘why we are Methodist’. I wonder if the Wesleyan perspective they speak of is one derived from John Wesley or from the politically liberal upper administrative beaurocracy of our present UMC and/or liberal theology professors. Other posts speak to lacks within local UMW. Many do not use UMW study programs because they taut ideas such as Palestinian ‘victims’ and anti-Israeli propaganda. Still others mention a lack of Biblical /scriptural knowledge. Maybe it’s because several generations of Methodist children and youth received nothing but political indoctrination of liberal socialism rather than authentic scriptural teachings. I have known young people intent on the ministry who were destroyed by liberal professors teaching that the Bible was not true.
My great-grandparents chartered and laid the cornerstone of the Methodist church they attended. My parents met there. The MYF was my social life as a teen. I met my husband at Methodist Summer camp. I studied and visited other faiths/denominations. I have participated in many interdenominational groups. I am still a Methodist. I have studied John and Charles and Susannah most of my life and I know why I am a Methodist! I have been fortunate over the years to be in the fellowship of three warm Methodist congregations. I now live in a small community where, every fifth Sunday, Methodists, Baptists and Catholics worship together. The women of all churches work together in support of mission needs (hurricanes, etc.), local food pantry, deployed military, veterans home, and on and on. (Isn’t funny that the women are always the ones raising the money?)
Shame on these gender-biased, profane, denomination-bashing posts! What happened to Open Doors and Open Minds? I have taught the UMC Disciple 1 study and taken the others. The groups were small. I was appalled when a few of the video presenters refer to Biblical ‘discrepancies’. Have they read John Wesley’s Christian Perfection? I am very pleased to report that using a Beth Moore study has awakened a desire for more scripture in my Sunday School class. And we question and research all the scripture referenced and more.
God truly works in mysterious ways. Perhaps some of you would prefer the writings of Max Lux; for example, Jesus vs. Christians.
I am a71 year old retired educator and A Sister in Christ to other members of The Body of Christ. (which by the way – is The Church)
YES MAAM!!!!