One of the more frequent arguments I’ve seen in the church lately is about Beth Moore. A colleague was asked why they wouldn’t allow a Beth Moore bible study to be used by a Sunday School class. The colleague responded with this concise one-liner that we’ll expand on in one of the longest posts ever at Hacking Christianity:
“If someone is setting fire to your house, why would you let them in?”
The Problem of Beth Moore: Introduction
Beth Moore is a Southern Baptist author, teacher, and evangelist, and the founder of Living Proof ministries that offers videos, bible studies, and events for women. She is very popular and is probably the #1 moneymaker for LifeWay Christian Bookstores, a Southern Baptist affiliated chain of bookstores (similar to Methodist’s Cokesbury).
Because she is massively successful, her videos are inspirational, and her events are empowering to women, it is not uncommon to find a Beth Moore bible study in a United Methodist Church in the Bible Belt. It used to be that pastors could prohibit it by saying “We only allow curriculum from Cokesbury” but Cokesbury sells her materials now. Also, there’s usually pressure for male United Methodist ministers to allow this dynamic woman into their Sunday Schools or else they get accused of misogyny.
Therein lies part of the problem of Beth Moore. One of my facebook friends described Beth Moore as Methodist Kudzu: a plant that was taken from its natural habitat and now runs wild causing havok. While Moore is perfectly at peace and in sync with the Baptist tradition (other than being a female teacher in an anti-women-preacher denomination), her brand of theology and way of reading the bible conflicts with the Wesleyan tradition and the United Methodist Church’s doctrine to which it has spread.
So what is a United Methodist clergyperson or church to do with Beth Moore?
Here’s where I’m on shaky ground: I’m not a woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman and see a confident, capable female biblical scholar whose passion about the Bible is infectious. I haven’t watched these videos in a woman’s group and been inspired and had the discussions afterward. So I don’t know what that is like and I’m hesitant to comment on it…
But luckily for you…I have woman friends! To be more specific, a half-dozen mainline (not crazy liberal and not crazy conservative) United Methodist women who are either clergy or clergy spouses have done at least two full studies and video programs with Beth Moore in their churches and wrote about their concerns to me.
I’ve categorized them and I’ve done some light editing to proofread/anonymize them but 98% of the quotes is their words.
Some disclaimers (or pre-emptive strikes, if you will):
- I am ABSOLUTELY not dismissing Moore’s ministry, faith, perspective, or obvious love for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and for helping women form a relationship with Christ. I am saying Beth Moore is appropriate for Baptist women within their theological system and NOT appropriate for Methodists and the Wesleyan system.
- I am ABSOLUTELY not dismissing women’s lived experience of Beth Moore or the transformations that she has had in their lives. That’s awesome and I celebrate that for you. Really! However, for those women who do not have a positive experience or are wondering about it, I offer these women’s lived experiences for you. If you think I’m dismissing women’s experience, I’m actually celebrating these women’s experience and holding them up as a counter-narrative to the Beth Moore phenomenon.
- Finally, I am ABSOLUTELY supportive of women in ministry. If you search online for Beth Moore criticism, almost all of them start out with the bullhonky about “women shall not have authority over men.” Most online criticism is thus not helpful to United Methodists, who by empowering women are closer to Jesus on that point (BOOM!). So this is an attempt to add to the conversation but without the fundamentalist hangups that, frankly, discredit most online commentary on Beth Moore in my eyes.
We good? Good. Read on…
The Problem of Beth Moore: Biblical Scholarship
Quotes:
[1] Beth Moore cleverly hides that she is a literalist. She does not just shoot from the hip, she uses a lot of commentary and you can learn about the cultures at the times the stories were written…probably the best part is when she explains why God hates the Amalekites and other groups and that’s why it’s okay for David to kill philistines and why the one guy in Esther hated Mordecai. She never approves of it officially, just explains it matter of factly without ever mentioning that the perspective of the authors may have been biased obviously.
[2] Beth Moore uses the New American Commentary as her primary source for Biblical exegesis (This is from their website–The New American Commentary is for those who have been seeking a commentary that honors the Scriptures, ….The New American Commentary assumes the inerrancy of Scripture, focuses on the intrinsic theological and exegetical concerns of each biblical book, and engages the range of issues raised in contemporary biblical scholarship.)
One of the main disagreements between her commentary and others is the four kingdoms that are represented by the beasts in Daniel. The whole idea of Daniel is taken as a literal prophecy (no consideration that it could have been written after the time of Daniel–he wrote it himself of course.) So she uses the Romans as one of the conquering armies, and keeps tying Daniel’s visions into the Romans conquering the Jews, and thereby brings Jesus into it.
She furthermore uses Revelation as a confirmation and continuation of the visions of Daniel, and ties them all together into this weird little package of end-time prophecies, with a literal Antichrist, matching the “big horn” in Daniel with the AntiChrist in Revelation.
It gets confusing, and a little dangerous, because there is just enough solid scholarship, in the names of the Greek Rulers, the Seleucids, Maccabees, the Babylonians, etc., that people tend to “buy” what she is saying, and tying this all in together.
Summary & Commentary:
Moore says often that scholarship and higher-level thinking gets in the way of the Gospel message. As a bible scholar, nothing offends me more. In her Daniel study, she takes everything very literally and does not offer any scholarship on what a message meant back when it was written, only at face value.
It also offends me that the very passages she quotes are often taken out of context and sometimes is read into beyond what is there. It might be helpful to slow down or pause her videos. In her videos she speaks so quickly that if you slow her down and look up the Scriptures she is referencing, you might see something different than what she is saying. I found that several times in her references to Mark and Romans in her Believing God DVD.
Further, a female blogger writes about Moore’s book So Long Insecurity:
This gets at the heart of the problem; Beth does not explain the meaning of the passage as derived from the context, she reads the passage in isolation, an elementary Bible study error. What she often fails to do, as is the case in this instance, is to explain how in submission to the scripture she arrives at her conclusions. She admittedly speculates and introduces personal experience and psychologizing of the text to back up her claims…sadly, she leaves her readers, many who are unfortunately disenchanted with the intellectual nature of the Christian faith, revisioning Paul the apologist as someone whose defense is motivated by self-centered weakness instead of a necessary defense of the gospel.
In short, students often learn how to read the Bible based on their teacher. By the way Moore presents the bible as Literal Truth but doesn’t read it literally, she is not modeling a consistent or helpful hermeneutic for students.
The Problem of Beth Moore: Unhelpful Theology
[3] My biggest problem with her theology is that she’s a Calvinist and though she avoids emphasizing it at times, she will wait for scripture that supports her perspective. Case and point: Esther (“but who knows that you have come to this position for such a time as this”). She really drilled it home on Esther and I couldn’t make it through the whole study. Now, like all successful modern Calvinist she always discusses the pain she has been through and never officially suggested that women are raped, abused, etc. for some higher purpose. She almost always uses her Calvinist perspective in a positive way like that we are destined for something greater that what we are living right now.
[4] From the Esther study, the main [problem] is her extreme doctrine of Providence. She believes, states, and teaches that everything that happens in our lives is an event caused by God, in order to teach us, or help us, etc. God causes everything to happen, whether good or bad. She goes on and on about it extensively, almost every lesson. I had to tell my ladies to really think about this–and where it leads. Because if they believe this, then do what do they tell a mom whose child has just died–that God caused it? To teach her what? Of course, the women don’t believe that, as most UM’s don’t…
[5] My Beth Moore criticism would include teaching that God causes bad things to happen to us to teach/test us. Lots of women in my church are ODing on BMoore – end up in my office for counseling when God “causes” tragedy & they can’t trust Him.
Summary & Commentary:
In addition to the above, my personal take is that Moore overuses the idea “God spoke to me” and people feel inadequate b/c God doesn’t always speak to them the same way. I am not doubting her experience, but as a pastor, I doubt she realizes the effect this has on some people. There’s a pastoral issue when one emphasizes special revelation in a study that is meant to be empowering and illuminating…and given her role, of course she doesn’t have to deal with the ramifications for the individual women trying to make sense of why God “willed” their son to die.
Thus, to these women, Moore’s biggest conflict with United Methodism is whether God wills terrible things to happen. From the Esther study, her main teaching is on Providence. “God causes everything to happen, whether good or bad” as our commentator mentions. This is absolutely unhelpful to women who have lost a child, have cancer, etc. I have never been able to look a woman in the eye who had a stillbirth and tell her God has a plan for her child to die (though God does have possibilities for healing!).
For example, the United Methodist Book of Worship includes a healing service for a family who has lost a pregnancy. Nowhere in this painful service do we ascribe to God that God had a purpose in this. We talk about mystery, we talk about “limited understanding” but never do we assume God’s intention in this, either the content of the intention or if there is an intention at all!
United Methodists are a diverse lot but if you really got down to it with the Methodist Middle and our Doctrine and Polity, we do not believe in this form of Providence (also called Determinism which is also taught by Rick Warren). It’s fine if individual Methodists believe this (and find meaning in it), but I do not and anyone I let into my house to teach ideally should not.
The Problem of Beth Moore: There’s Few Alternatives
Cokesbury and UMPH went the wrong way on the Beth Moore phenomenon. Instead of seeking out and offering publishing deals to a spunky United Methodist woman who loves the bible (a dozen of them I know just off the top of my head), they sold out and went where the money was and supported Moore’s publications.
What happened then is that Methodists had no equivalent to compare to Moore. What, suggest a women’s group just do a Disciple bible study instead? Please. BORING. Even the Living the Questions studies on Uppity Women are great theology but snoozer presentation (and SO EXPENSIVE that they are inaccessible to most). While these studies reach a certain segment of the denomination in really inspiring ways (I love them personally), the population segment that is attracted to Moore is not as attracted to these studies.
Why? Here’s my claim and feel free to debate it: People who watch Beth Moore aren’t as interested in the Bible as they are in someone who loves the Bible. One of my pastor friends expressed his frustration with Beth Moore being so popular by saying “she’s just so excited about reading the Bible.” While flippant it points out that while there may be better theologies out there, the UMPH is not offering comparative personalities.
Three of the six respondents mentioned that the attraction of Moore’s work wasn’t her theology but the way she made bible studies exciting. Her cadence, her structure, and the rhythm were well done…and easily/authentically imitated by a UM woman. As one of the commentators said and I promised I would include for balance sake:
[6] Here’s the kicker: I couldn’t have talked to you about any of those characters in the old testament before i did her studies. You learn the names, the stories, you get excited about the Bible, and she funny and interesting to listen to for the most part. I would have stuck with her, but her newer stuff is just too Calvinist. My favorite of the three i have done was David because it is a really exciting story and I never got bored. Please emphasize at some point that what she really has is a good structure for a well-paced study of the bible and she isn’t boring. I really think that’s why she has the Methodists. That, and the fact that none of us know anything about the Bible
That last line is flippant but it’s true for more people than you think!
All the above said, in an ideal situation personality shouldn’t dictate whether a study is good or not. From another female blogger Kim who reviewed The Patriarchs study:
A bible study should NOT rest on the strength of the speaker; it ought to rest with the strength of how God’s Word is presented and explained. When we rely on style alone, it becomes a matter of taking the Scripture and adjusting it to make us look more dynamic. That will invariably involve more personal narrative than exposition, and then where are the students left? Nothing wrong with personal narrative; it just should NOT form the bulk of the teaching.
Excitement is contagious, but instead of supporting a UMC equivalent, Cokesbury went where the money was, to our shame.
Conclusions, Suggestions, and Call for Resources
In short (for those of you that skip to the conclusions), there’s three things about the Beth Moore phenomenon within the United Methodist Church.
- Moore offers biblical criticism that is anti-intellectual even though it wraps itself in appeals to a commentary (one that interprets Scripture literally). There’s a difference between using biblical criticism and commentaries (which she does) and valuing intellectual engagement with the cultural context of the Scripture (which she typically doesn’t but has started to use more with her more recent material, thankfully).
- Moore’s expressed theology does not fit within a Wesleyan system. Her reliance on special revelation and emphasis on determinism often requires a pastoral care response that must deal more with the problems with that theological framework than the personal problem the individual has.
- There is undoubtedly an equivalent voice to Beth Moore in the UMC, but the publishing house and Cokesbury bookstores sold Moore (and now David C. Cook too! Argh!) instead of finding and supporting a comparative UM voice. We give money to the Baptists in our United Methodist bookstores and invite in a theology that John Wesley opposed fervently.
For me, any teacher who disregards scholarship and paints a very different image of God than I’m comfortable with would be very difficult to deal with in a Sunday School setting or a women’s group study. If I spend all my time building up a Methodist theology in my church, why would I want a Calvinist theology that is antithetical being taught (and indeed, Wesley is one of the few evangelists of his time that resisted Calvinism). Thus, if someone is trying to burn your theological house down, why let them in and run unchecked?
Even though one-liners to prohibit Beth Moore studies are entertaining, here’s some suggestions for dealing with Moore Kudzu in your congregation:
- Teach the studies yourself. This is by far the #1 suggestion. If you are a clergyperson or Sunday School leader who is well versed in United Methodist doctrine, it might be most helpful to allow the group to watch the video with the requirement that you be given time to respond at the end. By the third session of this, one of my clergy friends who did this had the participants look at her whenever they heard something out-of-sync with United Methodism. It works and it meets people where they are, but only if the clergyperson is well versed to handle it. And honestly it may stop people from asking for it so they don’t have to hear your comparisons! Ha!
- Continue to not allow Moore and print off this blog post as a conversation starter. Educate and show your congregation why Moore is problematic. Engage the person in conversation about these issues and why it is out of your pastoral care for them that you think it is not helpful.
- Lift up an alternative suggestion and emphasize WHY it is important to hear the voice of women in our same ecosystem. There’s a whole range of UM women who have great books, studies, and work even if they don’t have the same cadence or rhythm of Moore. I’m not going to add my preferences at the moment–I’d rather other voices lift up their experiences below. If you have an alternative suggestion, mention it below in the comments and the compilation will be published as a future blog post (and this one will be updated too).
Your turn! Requests for further engagement:
- Share who the alternatives are! There are a ton of United Methodist women (or other religious leaders whose expressed theology doesn’t inherently conflict with Wesleyan systems ie. Calvinism) who are excited about the Bible and offer comparable experiences for pastors and laity who want similar exposure. Who are they? What has been your experience? Leave them as comments and we’ll publish them for a future post.
- Comment below your experience of a Beth Moore study. Remember to read the ABSOLUTELY disclaimers above before you accuse me of discrediting yours or Moore’s faith. If you’ve had a good experience of Beth Moore and have grown as a follower of Christ, I couldn’t be happier for you. Comment, please!
Thanks for reading and sharing.
(Photo Credit: [1] “Beth Moore Live Simulcast 2010” by Brian Hendrix, Creative Commons share on Flickr; [2] “frustration” by e-magic, Creative Commons share on Flickr)
First you are wrong about the Bible. It is the true word of God. Not all the drivel that you suggested it is. In reading your article it makes me glad we left the Methodist church. One of the reasons we had problems with it. We celebrated Founders Sunday. To my shock we didn’t celebrate Jesus. We celebrated Wesley. Wesley the founder of the church. What a shock. Well guess if the Bible is not the true word of God and Wesley is the founder of your church you need to look at your theology and doctrine. Don’t be judging Beth Moore. And if you don’t believe that God is sovereign over all then you should be afraid be very afraid. I would rather know that God determined a child’s death than a man. Sorry if anyone is wrong here it is the writer of this article.
Amen.
Wow! I really hope that when people read this nonsense that they read it in depth and read between the lines of what this man is saying! Scary! Our God is a Sovereign God and He is in control of all things. I loved the part where he states that Beth Moore and Rick Warren teach Determinism. Huh? Does he know what Determinism philosophy is? Is Scripture not inerrant?
I do agree that the Methodists do hold to some very damaging doctrines if they do not believe in the infallible Word of God. And, yes, Beth Moore does love God more than anything and it shows!
Yes, it makes me shudder to imagine what the Methodists actually DO believe!
I have not been in a Beth Moore study. My wife, who is a UMC Minister, has (before she became a minister). She had the same experience that you describe, ie. poor biblical scholarship and dubious theology. I would like to see a series of Methodist studies that really delved deeply into valid biblical scholarship and addressed some of the more pithy concerns that it raises, such as the historical Jesus, the Synoptic problem, textual variations, canon development, extra canonical gospels, ancient Israel’s roots, Theodicy and the problem of evil, Pelagianism vs antinomianism, and on and on. There is plenty of material. The Disciple series doesn’t approach the level of examination and detail that is needed and available.
I have similar reservations about Beth Moore. First of all, I’m an independent, fundamental, temperamental KJV Apostles Creed kind of Baptist, so I have no problem with the literalism point.
The determinism and the “hearing from God” aspects really bother me. I’m gong to a SBC church right now and this sovereignty of God business is really getting shoved down our throats. Of course, you just have to use a dictionary to find that it means authority and not complete control! Scholarship is hard.
On hearing from God and being a literalist, she’s created a dangerous situation for herself. If the things she says don’t come to pass, she’s blasphemed God and put words in His mouth.
I’ve been through two of her studies, one just a year ago. I’m older now and feel rather patronized by the workbooks and the spoonfeeding that characterize her studies. I felt that something wasn’t right, so I researched and found a video of her on James Robison program acting almost unhinged! See this except from her ” teaching”:
“But there will be scoffers and they will be the far bigger threat, the one within our own brothers and sisters, our own family of God — far, far more demoralizing. And yes, it will come from bullies, and yes, it will come from the mean-spirited.”
http://www.donotbesurprised.com/2014/03/beth-moore-prophesies-coming-outpouring.html?m=1
So those of us that like to reason things out and don’t use language like outpouring, awakening, etc and don’t get whipped up into a Pentecostal emotional roller coaster are bullies.
She goes on to say in the transcript at the link that she’s “hungry” and “thirsty” etc. I can say that Jesus Christ is living water for my soul and the bread of life that I should never hunger. In not sure what Beth is feeding her soul. I recall that the Book says that in the last days people with heap teachers unto themselves, having itching ears. I’d say Beth is Exhibit A.
Instead of cracking open our own Bibles and concordances, the vast majority of Christians just want it fast food drive through style, with some Las Vegas showmanship thrown in. It has taken Satan awhile to get humanity dumbed down to this level and now he’s got them softened up, he’ll make the most of it.
Amen! Very well said!
Jesus said that He would be the”rock of offense” to some. It doesn’t matter if it offends you, but if it offends God. The truth stands. How many have you brought to Christ? How many disciples have you made? Stop trying to find splinters and take the beam out of you own eye.
I have done numerous Beth Moore studies and disagree with the blogger. God is sovereign and His word is literal. Not impressed with the bashing of a woman who has devoted her life to leading women to Christ. Seems to me the Methodist have interpreted the word of God to suit themselves.Beth has a ministry directed towards women. I don’t know where the idea comes from that she is Calvinist. NOTHING about her speaks toward Calvinism.
Most everything she speaks is of Calvin. Not horrible, just is. Look up Calvin’s theology. In the Inyed Methodist Church we are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sorry, United Methodist Church.
Right. It just “is”. Not good or bad –just not UM. Let’s find UM for our folks to get excited about.
Wow. You had me at “literalist.” As a life-long Methodist and Methodost minister’s wife, I can honestly say that this opinion is what is wrong with the Methodist Church and it will ultimately, sadly, be its downfall.
Sarah Jo said it so right!!! Any comment I would make could not make it plainer. Go sarah
I am so glad you wrote this, Jeremy. I quite agree with you. I’ve done several Beth Moore studies and read several books, and I can’t escape the points you name. It perpetually seems I am to read the Bible as word-for-word literal from her take on things.
I was talking with another UM about this today, in fact, because I was surprised to see her materials at the Cokesbury store at GC. Disheartening. I wish I felt I had another person to offer in her place, but not at the present time. I will keep my eyes open.
I offered a UM Bible study to one of the Beth Moore worshippers in my congregation and it was passed by and now they want to do the one on sex and sin and especially condemning of those who are on the fringe of society.
Why don’t you offer Jesus?
I have no problem with Beth Moore’s teaching style, books or bible studies. I do however have a huge issue with the cost. Being a single mom every penny is accounted for. How can the poor, widowed or single mom be able to afford any of her stuff? Unless someone gifts you her stuff, you find it at a used bookstore on sale or someone sells it on Amazon for a very reasonable price it’s impossible to have. Her teachings are great if you have the money. And don’t even get me started on her conferences which if you’re a first time goer you might be able to land some tickets for free or a discount but after that you’ll need to pay full price just like everyone else. I’m not asking for a handout or free stuff and no I do not live off of the government either but her stuff is very expensive to buy and if it comes down to do it to buy groceries or put gas in my vehicle or pay my bills or buy Beth Moore stuff or attend her conferences then I will be at home reading my bible for free. Other than that I think she’s a fantastic teacher. But even Corrie Ten Boom use to give her books away Joyce Meyer’s conferences use to be for free as well.
Yes. I agree. Expensive. I have found all of the lifeway bible studies to be expensive. Therefore, I encourage women, who have the means or have a little extra at the time, to buy two books, one for themselves and one for someone else. And yes, this can be done anonymously with both the give and the receiver. Same goes for a conference or retreat. Include as your guest another woman. It can be done so graciously that the recipient feels comfortable. I have been on both ends. And there is a blessing for both giver and receiver.
To be honest, I never heard of Beth Moore until today. I was shocked to see a price of her dvd in one of our bookstores and decided to google her to see what makes this woman of God so special because of her prices that are so ridiculously HIGH. NO WAY!!!! This is insane.
Jen Hatmaker. Any of her books. I am ready for my awesome Methodist friends to spread her joy around!
Amen! And Jessica Lagrone, a United Methodist pastor has several good studies as well!
Jessica Lagrone’s studies are awesome!
I just got home from our first session of Beth Moore’s “Breaking Free” study at my United Methodist church. We’ve done many of Beth Moore’s studies over the last 15 years. I’ve been a member of a United Methodist church for 18 years and I am offended by your criticism of Beth Moore. You said that Methodists don’t know anything about the Bible. Maybe that is the heart of the problem. Anyone who loves and studies the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit knows that Beth Moore knows what she’s talking about. I’ve been studying it intensely for over 10 years. It’s a craving the Holy Spirit put in me years ago. Beth is very careful in her teaching because she knows that the Bible says anyone who teaches it will be held accountable before God for what they teach. Beth’s UMPH comes from the Holy Spirit living inside of her (and all true believers) driving her to do what she does for God’s glory, not her own. I have four Calvinist friends and we’ve been around and round about it. Beth Moore is not Calvanist. She isn’t teaching that God CAUSES bad things to happen to us. She teaches that God allows us to suffer the same difficulties that all humans experience. There is a big difference. When we experience these things and come through them with God’s help and healing, we are then equipped to help others who go through the same things, but don’t know God, find help and healing through Him. 2 Corinthians 3:8. I was in a church that taught us God would protect us from all bad things. When my family experienced some serious problems, I assumed God must not love me after all. That was false teaching. That he allows us to experience suffering makes sense. We grow through the trials. There are so many emotionally wounded people in the world who need Jesus to heal them. Beth steers people to Jesus for healing. Satan wants people to stay wounded. Also, if my Methodist church worshiped Wesley, I would leave. I worship my Father God and Lord Jesus Christ and live by the Holy Spirit within me. I am a Christian who happens to attend a United Methodist church. God didn’t create denonminations. There should be one body that follows the teachings that God gave us in the Bible.
Yes
Amen!
I’m with you, dear sister in Christ. It pains me to hear two denominations that desire to be salt and light in this dying world, criticize and attack each other. Where is unity and love among these supposedly Christ followers?
Correct. On every account.
I would love to see an engaging study that is based in UMC doctrine, but frankly the Disciple studies and other Cokesbury studies are downright awful and dated. Add to that the fact that some of the scholars in the Disciple studies say things using biblical references that seem
to be taken out of both scriptural and historical context, and you wind up with a study that frankly I don’t trust. While I am not a fan of the outline style fill in the blank study guides that Moore presents, she gives enough of a lesson that I feel convicted by the Spirit to deepen my study until I have a thorough understanding of the subject. For women who are scratching the surface of their faith, I can see where some of your concerns might have merit.
I loved this. I am not familiar with this particular effort to monetize the gospel but nothing in it surprises me. What is interesting is how you succeeded in emphasizing the emotional attachment to the celebrity speaker and how your detractors here proved your point.
This sounds like sour grapes to me.
Not sour grapes. There is a difference between making someone out to be the end all to beat all when it comes to Gospel teachings and then turn around and not accept the teachings of a pastor who has had the education, the call, and the knowledge to be their pastor. Its one things to offer a Bible study, its another to year after year time after time to take Moore’s teachings and not accept what God is calling and has ordained through the pastor of your church. It is hurtful and disrespectful.
There are many teachers in seminary who are atheists. You know that right? There are atheist preachers too. Bryan Wright, a prominent minister with a large congregation in Atlanta was shocked upon his discovery of this some 40+ years ago while attending seminary. Some seminaries have pagan roots. There are numerous articles of this on line. Check it out. http://abcnews.go.com/WN/atheist-ministers-leading-faithful/story?id=12004359 An education isn’t everything either. After all we have people graduating from high school that can’t read or write. Run if your pastor deviates from the N.T.teachings. Test the spirit.
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What Moore does is make it “us and them”. -“Accept my way or it is wrong”. “Take the Bible literally or you are wrong.” As a UM pastor, female, she offends me. I have a congregation of women that are so gaga over her and such a lack of respect for me that I feel like telling them, “get Beth Moore to do your preaching.” I respect the Baptist folks, especially American Baptists, but Methodists aren’t Baptists, and especially when condescendingly as Southern Baptists are toward anyone other then them. As much as I do not approve of Beth Moore, I would lose my place here at my church and have to succumb to her worship until I am appointed to another church and pray to God the next one doesn’t have Beth Moore worship.
I am a woman and a pastor. I love Gods Word and anyone who can encourage and stimulate a life for its study and application.
I brought many Beth Moore studies into the context of the churches I served over the course of 25 years. And I’ve never been sorry.
God calls us to His Word and, through the power of the Holy Spirit, makes it possible for us to discern the truth. If a teacher conveys an error or misses the mark for a particular application, it does not mean that s/he is a “weed” or a “fire” that needs to be extinguished! Good grief! Has every sermon you ever heard been totally, 100%, on point for your life or for every single person sitting in the pews. Again, GOOD GRIEF!
We are to study God’s Word with a passion because it is transformative. And we do not study it alone with no counsel or place to ask our very personal questions of the teaching.
as I said, I have been involved in pursuing discipleship with many different people and perspectives over the course of my 50 years as a Christian. Certainly there have been teachings that I felt uncomfortable with … Certainly there were people who went to different denominations gathered together … certainly there were oppprtunities to discuss concerns (both theological and personal). AND THAT IS GOOD.
I believe it honors God to get connected to His Word and to pursue good teaching AND to study it with others where any questions or concerns can be addressed. It is important to have someone (hopefully more) who can help with specific variations in theological understanding of such things that are only hinted at in seminary (I have five years of it under my belt from respected teachers with whom I might have disagreed).
Why not applaud the fact that people are studying Scripture and pray that God might use her through the power of the Holy Spirit, and raise up others who will do this in the next generation?
Instead of had mouth her because dye isn’t Wesleyan? Good grief. I’m not either. And I believe God is ok with that. !
Sorry … I meant to type “bad mouthing”
It’s a job for you.
Wow! Sounds bitter to me. God calls and God equips. He raises up and He brings down. We must be careful when comparing ministers, teachers of the Gospel. We are to love one another deeply from the heart. We are to pray one for another. We are to sharpen one another and not critique in a public forum such as this. And especially pushing our own agaenda, religion, etc. What we offer is to be more about our Lord Jesus Christ and less about us. And we’re to remember we’re ALL still learning and growing; even Beth Moore.
Jeremy Judges Beth Moore, On The Internet No Less – And Deems Her Unacceptable (But feel free to use his Essay to start any condemning Beth Moore talks)!!
Did you write this string of words, Jeremy? I was looking on Google for Bible passages Beth uses in a study and found this essay. It’s an incredibly anti-God’s-word string of thoughts. It is clear you struggle with tribalism and an “us” versus “them” attitude. Who cares if you are UM or a BLT. God’s word, especially Jesus’ teachings are directly opposed to creating teams and being exclusive like you are clearly doing in your essay. There are so many errors in your essay and claims that are simply false, it’s sad. God asks that we do not judge. God asks that we love Him and love each other. It’s really about that simple. How have you followed this in your essay? Is God, in your mind, asking you to judge Beth Moore? How are you loving God and loving others in your essay? How are you encouraging others to grow in their faith? How are you trying to grow in your faith as well? You speak like a child, reason like a child, and think like a child. And…you sound jealous. I think Satan used you as his keyboard in this essay. Work on growing in your relationship with God and with people, please. God uses our relationships often to convey His messages to us. He loves us. He loves Beth Moore. He loves UM people (including women!), He loves Baptists, Presbyterians, and…get ready – nondenominational folks!!! (Ooooh, the blasphemy!) Do you? Show us! Write something incredibly loving and something God would be proud of! I looked at your twitter feed and you are so wrapped up in politics and concern for the UM world – goodness!! You have on a special-colored lens in which you view your religious path, your preaching to and judging of others. You are not free (or open-minded if your writings reflect you accurately) – Jesus’ path sets us free. You are a vine full of knots and tangles from what you display on the internet. Jeremy’s Essay – #teamUM #heknowsomeUMwomen!! #uh-oh Jesus wasn’t a UM guy what Will you do, Jeremy??? Who cares!?? Off with you now, back to the politics of the UM world…I think this UM stuff you write of gives you a feeling of self-importance you seem to seek. Ego much, Jeremy??
#teamCokesburyonlyiftheysellUMmerchandise #UMsoundslikeacultfromJeremy’srespresentation #JeremyjudgesBEthMooreontheinternetFindsherNotacceptable #booBaptists #booCalvinism #booanyinterpretationoftheBibleJeremydoesnotapproveof #booteamsnotUM
Jeremy Judges Beth Moore, On The Internet No Less – And Deems Her Unacceptable (But feel free to use his Essay to start any condemning Beth Moore talks)!!
Did you write this string of words, Jeremy? I was looking on Google for Bible passages Beth uses in a study and found this essay. It’s an incredibly anti-God’s-word string of thoughts. It is clear you struggle with tribalism and an “us” versus “them” attitude. Who cares if you are UM or a BLT. God’s word, especially Jesus’ teachings are directly opposed to creating teams and being exclusive like you are clearly doing in your essay. There are so many errors in your essay and claims that are simply false, it’s sad. God asks that we do not judge. God asks that we love Him and love each other. It’s really about that simple. How have you followed this in your essay? Is God, in your mind, asking you to judge Beth Moore? How are you loving God and loving others in your essay? How are you encouraging others to grow in their faith? How are you trying to grow in your faith as well? You speak like a child, reason like a child, and think like a child. And…you sound jealous. I think Satan used you as his keyboard in this essay. Work on growing in your relationship with God and with people, please. God uses our relationships often to convey His messages to us. He loves us. He loves Beth Moore. He loves UM people (including women!), He loves Baptists, Presbyterians, and…get ready – nondenominational folks!!! (Ooooh, the blasphemy!) Do you? Show us! Write something incredibly loving and something God would be proud of! I looked at your twitter feed and you are so wrapped up in politics and concern for the UM world – goodness!! You have on a special-colored lens in which you view your religious path, your preaching to and judging of others. You are not free (or open-minded if your writings reflect you accurately) – Jesus’ path sets us free. You are a vine full of knots and tangles from what you display on the internet. Jeremy’s Essay – #teamUM #heknowsomeUMwomen!! #uh-oh Jesus wasn’t a UM guy what Will you do, Jeremy??? Who cares!?? Off with you now, back to the politics of the UM world…I think this UM stuff you write of gives you a feeling of self-importance you seem to seek. Ego much, Jeremy??
#teamCokesburyonlyiftheysellUMmerchandise #UMsoundslikeacultfromJeremy’srespresentation #JeremyjudgesBEthMooreontheinternetFindsherNotacceptable #booBaptists #booCalvinism #booanyinterpretationoftheBibleJeremydoesnotapproveof #booteamsnotUM
This is all good stuff and all that. But for some who have little knowledge of Calvin or Wesley, let alone all those versions of the Bible, it’s all “Greek”. That includes me.
But I am learning! Keep it up!
I love Beth Moore and her teachings, may God bless the ministry she started
Agreed!
This is very interesting and helpful. Theology does matter and I appreciate how you explained Beth Moore here. You are right about her popularity and I, too, share the disappointment that Cokesbury has opted for better sales.
I think United Methodist Women have some really good studies – their spiritual growth study often explores the Bible with great depth and profound engagement with God and the world. Check out the mission studies, especially the spiritual growth study, on their website. Even older studies still have relevance.
Maybe we should be inviting Discipleship Resources to work on developing more women’s studies by inviting a consortium of women theologians like Amy Oden at St. Paul, Carol Newsome at Candler, Mai-Anh Le Tran at Eden Theological, Heather Murray Elkins and Traci West and Lynne Westfield from Drew, Amy-Jill Levine and Emilie Townes of Vanderbilt, Eboni Marshall-Turman from Yale, Cheryl Anderson of Garret, Sarah Lancaster of Methodist School of Ohio, Priscilla Pope-Levison of Perkins, elmira Nazombe at Rutgers, Renita Weems (Nashville), Glory Dharmaraj and Ann Craig (New York) and others.
Abingdon publishes bible studies by Melissa Spoelstra, Kimberly Dunnam Reisman, and Babbie Mason. They recently launched their new AbingdonWomen.com website. My impression was that Abingdon was a Methodist publisher (if not strictly UMC). Am I correct in assuming these are Wesleyan(is) bible studies?
I know that Mark Virkler used to be a Wesleyan minister somewhere, and now his daughter Charity Kayembe is teaching through his CLU School of the Spirit ministry, but I don’t know if that’s too woo-woo to be even considered “Wesleyan” any more. (I do like it ‘though!)
I should add, I always manage to find something interesting in the UMC Women’s Reading Program catalog every year. Not Bible studies strictly speaking, but good books for a book group at the very least.
Judge not lest you be judged. God loves Beth Moore and that same God loves You too my friend. God’s kingdom is full mysteries. Beth is one of those and so are You. Jesus came so we could have a wonderful and direct relationship with God and not so that we could have a religion( Methodist, Baptist etc)On the day of judgement, You will stand before God and give an account of Your life and Beth Moore will give an account of Her life. Seek the kingdom of God and stop falsefinding and labelling people. It is not your job because You are Not God. Let God be God because whether You like it or not, God will continue to use different people man or women from different denominations to speak His truth to His children in the whole world. God bless you indeed.
Yes!
I really appreciate Julie Taylor giving us a list of Wesleyan women theologians of note. I personally have only sat at the feet of three of them, but you better believe I will be reading fervently this winter. Somebody needs to write a Wesleyan curriculum that could popularly appeal. I also agree that I feel sold out by Cokesbury.
Pastor, have you noticed how many young people/young adults have left the Methodist Church? Aren’t you curious? Have you talked with God about that? I’m sure you haven’t, because you don’t ‘hear’ from God. He doesn’t ‘speak’ to you. It’s a sad state of affairs when even the pastors can’t make the Word of God come alive. That’s because it is not alive to them. It’s just history. Grace? Really? Yet, I never heard it discussed with any sort of joy, excitement, hope. Could it be the Life is gone and nobody noticed?
Have you noticed the massive numbers who have left Southern Baptist churches?
And Albert Mohler’s claim that belief in Young Earth Creationism is a necessary element of Christianity?
Beth Moore has a God given gift for teaching his word. It sounds as if you believe that the women that take part in her studies are all dummies, and that they take everything she says as the whole truth. Nobody knows everything, but we can believe that God instills the truth in us. I love Beth Moore studies because they are indepth studies. She also helps us to apply scripture to our lives and what God expects from us. I think God uses Beth Moore no different then he used Esther. After each of her studies, and as I am taking part in her study, I am amazed at how much closer I feel to God.
Organized religion has done more harm to the message and ministry of Jesus Christ than anything. It was the religious leaders that opposed Jesus’s teachings and sought to silence Him. It was the Religious leaders that paid Judas the 30 pieces of silver to betray Him. Of course this was God’s plan all along – so YES, bad things do happen all to bring us to our knees and to the foot of the cross where we will find HIM, HIS mercy, HIS grace, HIS love — HIS REDEMPTION. If God can use a donkey (Number 22) to get someone’s attention; He can certainly use FLAWED humans to lead us there as well. God uses the good and the bad things in our lives to draw us to HIM. To mold us into HIS IMAGE, to develop HIS character in us so we can turn around and HELP the lost, the broken, the hurting, and the sick. I’m Orthodox (Greek) the separation of all the religions that claim to worship the ONE TRUE LIVING GOD, deeply grieves me. WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST. Whether we are Baptist, Methodist, Protestant, Presbyterian, Messianic Jewish, etc.: OUR MISSION is to LEAD others to the saving grace that is the LORD Jesus. I may not agree 100% with everything other religions teach, for example: THE 10% Tithe… yep I’m going there! GOD WAS TALKING TO THE TEMPLE PRIESTS not the Jewish people. The RELIGIOUS LEADERS were robbing God. Yet a lot of protestant churches teach that to receive financial blessing/abundance you MUST TITHE 10%. I could on and on list them here but it would take up too much room and it’s really not the point the — POINT IS just because I don’t 100% agree with how you present the cross to someone, doesn’t mean that JESUS can’t and won’t use that to redeem the person seeking HIM. It’s all about the HEART of the seeker, the one being wooed by God. So get out of your religiously pious blind BOX – (Matt 23). Go to the four gospels, read them over and over and over until Jesus’s ministry is alive in your heart. You can use Religion and be a STUMBLING BLOCK or you can use it to set the captive free. Beth Moore has taught for years and many women in all religions have caught the fire of the Holy Spirit through her teachings. She is a fisher of women. God is using her mightily to restore brokenness so of course the devil will try to discredit her. The Evidence is in this article. “Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear..” Jeremiah 5:21
Totally Agree Passionate Christ Loving Methodists, Beth Moore Bible Studies have nourished and deepened my love for Christ. Her work has brought hundreds of thousands to Christ and a deeper faith. Do you doubt the hand of God in this? Being a Methodist doesn’t bring you to a saving knowledge of Jesus. Take note of what your leaders are saying and their motives for saying it. You read your Bible, study it and obey God. God will take care of the consequences! You will never regret obeying God over man. May the Spirit of God have free reign in your lives. Mary Ann Hoffman
Agree about doctrinal hair-splitting. Come to Jesus. There are many windows, but only One Door.
Hundreds of authors over thousands of years and dozens of translations of stories that were all oral traditions. If you believe the Bible is literal, good luck. This simple minded approach merely gives lazy comfort to those who sit, pray and take no action while the world burns around them. God gave you curiosity and a questioning mind for a reason, and it was not to trip over your thoughts and accidentally end up in hell. Use your brains and ask if your literalism makes good sense when held up next to the final commandment, love one another.
Good luck to you. You’ll need it to keep your faith. Where is your questioning mind?. Why is it when someone tells you something in scripture is untrue, you believe it? Why don’t you research it? Perhaps you are the one who is lazy. It was once thought the Hittites never existed, that the Jews did not have the technology to make a menorah and so forth and so forth with thousands of more examples. If the explanation isn’t there science hasn’t caught up yet. Science,we don’t have all the answers and some of the long standing answers we have are incorrect. You know that, right?. We don’t have all the answers yet.
“Use your brains and ask if your literalism makes good sense when held up next to the final commandment, love one another.” God is always good. We aren’t. We are the created. We don’t have the full picture so therefore it’s not only presumptuous and borderline blasphemous but stupid to question God’s actions.
Good luck to you. You’ll need it to keep your faith. You are ripe for the picking.
I just finished reading most of your post, but frankly, I tire of such silly criticism. Your mention of Doctrine suggests to me that you are holding your doctrine higher than the word of God. Case in point: Esther- The phrase following is from the Bible. The writer seems to try to discredit the word of God like it is a made up phrase that came from a T-shirt. I know that you did not write these words but you did copy them to set up a point.
You keep returning to the idea of the woman who has lost a child and I would love to remind you that the Bible does provide comfort to this woman and God will take that woman up. He will speak to her through his word. I hope that someone will break it down for her and teach her how to study God’s word. I have found Beth Moore studies to be helpful to me in that regard.
You speaking over that woman is not the only answer and I assure you she is better handled by a God that loves her beyond comprehension. You can hold to your Doctrine if you prefer, I respect/expect that. I pray that the women in your church will grab hold of God’s word and grow like Kudzu over the traditions of old and any doctrine that would cause separation in the body of Christ.
I just got online to look for a devotional written by Beth Moore. I saw this site and had to take a peek, I have never heard anyone have a negative word about her. I have done 8 of her studies and have found them to be incredibly insightful and thought provoking.
I’m always fascinated by people who will spend their time splitting hairs and looking for fault in others who are clearly spending their time leading people to Jesus and helping facilitate a greater understanding of the bible and a closer walk with God.
People like you are what is wrong with the church today and why non believers want nothing to do with “Christians” or “Religion” and why our youth are leaving the church in droves. You should be ashamed of yourself!
We are called to love Christ and one another – maybe you should give that a try:)
This is so sad when a so called child of God publicly bashes another child of God. I can’t imagine how I would feel to have someone tear my child apart. I believe this kind of stuff/waste of time stuff breaks God’s heart when there are people heading for a Christless eternity and the focus is tearing another believer down. I will pray for your eye to be truly open to grace and love that Christ died so we could posses it.
You, Sir, are a “holier than thou” preacher! I was raised in your wonderful Methodist Church, went through two years of Confirmation, and was married in the precious Methodist Church. Never had I actually been saved! Never grasped the idea of prophecy, death of our sins, or salvation through Grace! You are like those legalistic Jews who felt that actions and ritual were required for absolution. Where does the Bible promote the United Methodist Church over other denominations? In fact, where does the Bible discuss the necessity for different denominations. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, factually, and literally. I pray that you, too, learn the truth!
Thanks Linda! This blog post is the gift that keeps on giving, isn’t it?
This is why I am no longer a United Methodist. I left the church in 1990 in favor of a church that preaches out of the Bible and believes in the inerrant Word of God. The UM church as a rule is okay with doubt and a wide interpretation of scripture. I would rather live with confidence and peace, trust and surrender wholly devoted to the Lord than to live with questions and doubt, uncertainty and discontent. Still think of and pray for the UMC from time to time and hope my old UM friends are saved and growing in Christlikeness and are being fed in their church.
Wow. Where would I begin? Born, christened, confirmed in a United Methodist Church. Generations of Methodists – grandfather regional music director in Billy Sunday’s ministry as a Methodist. Attended United Methodist churches all my life UNTIL, and I hate to say this in a way, but it’s the truth. We had just moved to the South and I was climbing the steps of the nearest Methodist Church when I was strongly impressed by what I now know was the voice of God, saying – “Go to the Baptist Church across the street.” Laugh if you will, but that is exactly what happened. I did not know one single Baptist. But I crossed the street to the Baptist Church by myself, and it changed my life! I had always been taught about Jesus but never that you HAD TO BE BORN AGAIN, SAVED, HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST – nothing like that in a Methodist Church. I went to the altar in that Baptist Church in 1980, believed I was a sinner, repented, asked Jesus into my heart and I was converted, born again and my life changed. The first, very first thing that happened was I had a yearning, yes a real yearning to be baptized (I had been christened at two months old). The second thing that happened was that scripture, the Bible, became absolutely alive to me. I couldn’t get enough of it and I knew, felt in my innermost being, that it was the literal Word of God. Yes, literal. That the Bible is God’s love letter to us and in it is all we need to know about God, Jesus and their relationship to man. Oh, how I wish all the United Methodists would experience this! It is life-changing. “Religion” will never replace the conversion experience. That is why Jesus said to Nicodemus – “You must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God.” It is a transforming experience. It is not liturgy. It is not reciting the Apostle’s Creed. It is not singing the Doxology or hearing one line of scripture read to you every Sunday morning, having a Processional and a Recessional, etc. Oh, how I wish everyone would experience the difference between “mental understanding of Christ” versus the transformative experience of being born again. Your life will really begin.
I did not read the entire blog. I got to the basic [this works for Baptists but not for Methodists] theme. I wondered to myself, is this blog about Beth Moore not teaching Christ or not teaching Methodism? I ask this because if it’s about Methodism only, this blog is no better than that of Watch Tower and the Jehovah’s Witness. Is she teaching Christ properly or is she not? If yes, then fine; if no, then that’s a problem. If this is more about keeping Methodists Methodist, then this blog is the problem, not Beth Moore.
Methodists should care what is taught in their churches. As a Methodist, I care what is taught in my church, and for those who also care, this blog is a resource so that they can make informed decisions.
Are you part of a church tradition? Do you care if your church’s tradition teaches what it believes?
UMJeremy,
Is it the word of God or tradition that you love most? Could you be more concerned about protecting that which you feel comfortable in believing than being open to lessons God may be trying to teach? Humans are fallible; that includes Beth and you (and me). I think it could be a mistake to be so sure the “tradition” that is taught in “your” church is totally right and to be so sure what Beth teaches is so wrong. There are no denominations in heaven. This may be unsettling to you, but I’m relatively sure it is truth–yet, can’t say for sure. And neither can you.
I’ve had to come a long way in my faith walk; from a self assured atheist to a humble believer in my 30s. There is a value in not having grown up in a particular “tradition”. I think it makes one consider the Bible on it’s own merit, aside from the trappings of comfortable tradition, although, I’ve witnessed that downfall in all the denominations I’ve visited. I identify as a Christian who chooses to attend a particular Lutheran church, but also happily discusses beliefs with–and attends or holds Bible studies about Jesus– with Catholic, Baptist, “non denominational”, and even non believing friends. Praise God that I had that gifted to me when I was an atheist.
Never be so secure in the fact your traditions define Biblical truth. They are traditions, after all, and it often takes stepping out of the familiarity of comfort zones where God works most through fallible, humble people to bring in new believers.
~Tanja
Have you ever considered publishing an e-book or
guest authoring on other blogs? I have a blog based on the same topics you discuss and would love to have you share some stories/information. I know my viewers would enjoy your
work. If you are even remotely interested, feel free
to send mme an e-mail.
You sure said enough that there is practically no way to check out all your claims.
Personally, I have a problem with the Methodist Church and baptism. Maybe you could explain it…once you are sprinkled as a baby you never have to be baptized again,
even if as an adult you become saved and you want to be baptized? And if you wanted to be immersed instead of sprinkled is that allowed? Jesus wasn’t sprinkled. And I was always taught that baptism was an declaration of your faith in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ, not as actually saving you. So why do you sprinkle babies? They don’t know they are sinners who need to be saved by the grace of God through belief in Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection.
When he stated, I have women friends, Not crazy liberal and not crazy conservative, that tells me everything I need to know about this man and his biased opinions. Stick to a subject where you can give an opinion that doesn’t include your personal preferences and dislikes.
“I am a biblical scholar” and you don’t believe Daniel is prophetic, i.e. written 100s of years after Daniel. Well, there are other evangelical and non-evangelical scholars that reject such a dating and authorship. Such an interpretation is as old as Welhausen and Tubigen. These positions are coherent and valid. Josephus references the book and said Alexander was told he was the one to overthrow Persia, when Alexander came to Jerusalem. You also introduce a problem with Jesus referring to the book as prophetic, as well as other OT prophets. Jesus said they wrote about him, clearly affirming supernatural knowledge of the future in the past. We now know the Greek culture was beginning to flourish during Daniel’s time even though it hadn’t grown to the point of conquering the area. Inter-cultural trade was common. Most of the terms in Daniel are related to musical terms, a cultural art that is commonly shared between cultures when trading occurs, similar to food dishes. You need to update your scholarship and at least be honest that other views exists.